Loot distribution and my wow guild.

[Naethyn]

My wow guild is deciding on what type of loot system to use. We just merged with another guild of equal size. We have have downed both world bosses and Onyxia together and are close to defeating ragnaros. Up untill this point we have always /random 100 for gear. Here is a link to the thread that has started. I'm interested to hear what you old nameless think =p

http://www.hellvensentinels.com/forums/ ... sc&start=0

[Tikker]

you /random for gear? jeje



dkp for the win in like 99% of situations

[Naethyn]

Frostwolf alliance side fucking blows. k

Any raiding guilds out there, preferably PVP server, looking for hunter?

wuwu

[Naethyn]

btw, i have ur avatar hanging on my wall tikker =p

[Arlos]

I actually like our loot system more than I like point systems. The issue I have with point systems is that they serve as dis-incentives for people to get incremental upgrades, or indeed upgrades at all if there's some new tier on the near horizon. The problem with that is that you are going to have harder and more difficult times on raids because people are still in blue/green loot while holding out for BWL drops, which means actually beating the BWL bosses is going to be that much harder than it would be if everyone was in at least partial MC gear.

What we do is have a loot council system. We make a channel that has the officers on it, plus 3 randomly selected ordinary guild members. Officers then take requests for item drops from everyone in the guild. If you're bidding on something, you leave the channel and they replace you. Once all bids are in, they list everyone who has asked for the item, along with their raid attendance and how much loot they've gotten. The people in the channel then vote on who gets it, with everyone having an equal vote.

It's a lot better than strict officer-award systems, since the random selection of average guildmembers who can out-vote officers means that there's no accusations of favoritism. Also, since you're not spending points on something, people actually bid on stuff that may only be an incremental upgrade, which ultimately helps the guild, and only stuff that no one can use actually rots. With strict point systems, you often get stuff that someone on the raid can use get DE'd, simply because that person is saving their points for some better piece of gear.

-Arlos

[Lyion]

Its still a biased caste system, Arlos. A few decide who gets what.

Like Tikker said, DKP for the win. Anything else is unfair.

[Arlos]

I disagree. Since the loot decision group is constantly changing, you avoid the institutionalized favoritism of normal award-based systems, especially since the normal members have just as much voting power as officers or the guildleader. Also, the benefits, as in the case of people actually getting incremental upgrades, help the guild enough to more than equalize out the issue.

-Arlos

[Lyion]

But you still have the same officers in the pool. Perhaps if you did random people every time, but you don't.

It's still a vastly inferior and less fair system than DKP, IMHO.

Also, we ran this exact same system in Sanctuary. Officer council with random guildmembers added per raid. After a year of it and DKP in Euph, I believe there is no comparison.

It's definitely better than /random, though.

[KaiineTN]

I like a ratio system more than a point system, that way you don't have to spend ridiculous amounts of time hoarding points to be the first to get a decent loot in an established guild. Being fed the guild's leftovers is pretty lame, imo.

The First Seal's loot system in EQ kicks ass.

[Tacks]

After like flawless attendance over a years time with Sanctuary I got 0 loot was always the last in line for hate gear I think I ended up with 3 pieces only because Lyion and Sori and the other clerics already had them ><...until I FINALLY bitched at a Karnor's raid. Fuck our biased officers=P DKP is the only fair system.

[Tikker]

The only thing that DKP doesn't handle very well, is an influx of new players

when everyone's been attending raids for roughly the same amount of time, it works almost flawlessly

if you replace 10 raiders with new people tho, it takes a bit too long (imo) for those new people to catch up


unless of course they come in with comparable gear, then it's moot

[Tacks]

In our DKP system new players have just the opposite Tikker. New players are more likely to get loot.

[KaiineTN]

The leftovers, yeah. Which is lame.

[Tikker]

In our DKP system new players have just the opposite Tikker. New players are more likely to get loot.

how so?



ours works not bad in that we do silent auction (I hated it at first, but it's pretty beneficial to newer people)


Once everyone has the gear ahead of you, you get that item for cheap, so don't fall as far back as you would normally

[Lyion]

After like flawless attendance over a years time with Sanctuary I got 0 loot was always the last in line for hate gear I think I ended up with 3 pieces only because Lyion and Sori and the other clerics already had them ><...until I FINALLY bitched at a Karnor's raid. Fuck our biased officers=P DKP is the only fair system.

Yeah, but that was you.

Should we give Taxx an item? Nah, he'll disband again and bitch about something new next week, so fuck no

DKP is completely unbiased. Any time you have the same small group of people involved in every loot decision it has too many opportunities to be very unfair

Like Taxx noted above, certain people can get left out due to personal issues.

I actually wrote a simple database/frontend for my DAOC guild that I never used much because Camelot had no real raiding like EQ, but it's a guild tracker that gives a point total based on current gear, a total based on raids, and a total based on attitude that I really liked. This enabled it to have DKP, Officer input, and current gear all being factors for upgrades. I'm still not sold it's better than pure DKP, but it'd be heads and shoulders above any sort of 'assigned' loot setup.

[Tacks]

The leftovers, yeah. Which is lame.

Wrong. A rogue in his 1st MC run got a NS hat. His second run he got gloves.

[xaoshaen]

After like flawless attendance over a years time with Sanctuary I got 0 loot was always the last in line for hate gear I think I ended up with 3 pieces only because Lyion and Sori and the other clerics already had them ><...until I FINALLY bitched at a Karnor's raid. Fuck our biased officers=P DKP is the only fair system.

Yeah, but that was you.

Should we give Taxx an item? Nah, he'll disband again and bitch about something new next week, so fuck no

DKP is completely unbiased. Any time you have the same small group of people involved in every loot decision it has too many opportunities to be very unfair

Like Taxx noted above, certain people can get left out due to personal issues.

I actually wrote a simple database/frontend for my DAOC guild that I never used much because Camelot had no real raiding like EQ, but it's a guild tracker that gives a point total based on current gear, a total based on raids, and a total based on attitude that I really liked. This enabled it to have DKP, Officer input, and current gear all being factors for upgrades. I'm still not sold it's better than pure DKP, but it'd be heads and shoulders above any sort of 'assigned' loot setup.

More fair perhaps, but fairness doesn't necessarily correlate with what's good for the guild.

[Gidan]

In a perfect DKP system, the avg number of points in the guild is 0. Just as many points come in as go out.

The best implementation of this is items are awarded for a specific point value. At the end of the raid the total number of points spent is divided amoung the people in the raid evenly based on time spent at the raid. It ends up being rather complicated but if you break a raid up into 30 or 60 minute blocks, and award points in each of those blocks based on the points spent in each of those blocks, when the raid is over the net DKP in the guild is still 0, people who were only at the raid for 30 mins were awarded for what the guild did in those 30 min's no more no less. Yeah sometimes this will mean somone who only showed up for 30mins and in that 30mins you killed alot will get alot, but other times they will only be there for 30min inwhich you kill nothing and they will get nothing.

With that basic setup, net DKP of the guild is always 0, point hording people will always exist but at the same time, if they choose not to spend their points on something and no one wants it, it rots and they get no points for the kill so in the long run hording points hurts you and others. There is nothing you can do about point horders, they are just something every system will have. Also since you dont actually get any points unless points are spent, you will never have the situation where everyone has a huge number of points and new people come in way behind. New people will always come in right in the middle.

What This means for the guild is that new players would have just as good a chance to get loot as old players. Actually they have a slighly beter chance simpley because less of the older members will want it based on gear they have and such. They come in with the guild avg of points 0. Some will be negative, some will be posative.

[Tacks]

Thats the exact system we use. NullDKP. The number of incoming points is equal to the number of outgoing points. (except in rare cases such as points for learning Ragnaros/Onyxia and first kill bonuses).

[KaiineTN]

The leftovers, yeah. Which is lame.

Wrong. A rogue in his 1st MC run got a NS hat. His second run he got gloves.

Because either all other rogues had them, or other rogues wanted to save DKP for "better" items. Either way you look at it, both of those items fall into the leftovers category.

[Tikker]

The leftovers, yeah. Which is lame.

Wrong. A rogue in his 1st MC run got a NS hat. His second run he got gloves.

Because either all other rogues had them, or other rogues wanted to save DKP for "better" items. Either way you look at it, both of those items fall into the leftovers category.

so what's your point?

all DKP does is set a looting order


it doesn't matter when people join, or how many there are, someone has to be 1st, and someone has to be last

[Tacks]

NS Hat is one HELL of a leftover item.

And no, you're a fucking moron, not all of them had it already. 3 of the rogues there had negative DKP but thanks for assuming shit you don't have a clue about.

[Gidan]

The best part of a null DKP system is usually 1 drop uses all your points or puts you negative. Sounds bad at first but then you realize that this is the same for everyone. When things work well, you get your drop and go negative, then by the time it come around for you to get another, you have worked your way back to posative numbers. You dont get the people with thousands of points like you do in standard DKP systems.

So say you get a drop, got negative and the next day a new person comes into the guild. They have more points then you, however they get 1 item and they are right back behind you. It makes for a much beter rotation on loot, but at the same time it takes into account how much you raid. If you raid more then the somone else, while you generally go back and forth on loot, from time to time, you will get 2 in a row.

It really is a good system.

[Lyion]

My only issue would be the guy who gets an item and leaves for another Guild Gidan and doesn't earn what he bid on.

[Tikker]

you're always going to have faggots who burn their way down to massive negative dkp then ebay