FSM advocates call for equal time in science classrooms

[Langston]

Well - since private school kids are doing it to some extent, let's say half as much (25% have sex), their representative proportion of the whole is very small and would have only a slight effect on the statistic.

There are even fewer home schooled kids... and their effect would be almost unnoticeable on the whole.

I see your point, but statistically they're not going to make a difference compared to the millions and millions of kids this analysis focused on.

[Donnel]

16,000 x 50 is not millions, it's not even 1 million.

I think you don't give enough credit to private and homeschooled kids though. There's alot more then most think, and I'm not just talking about private parochial (sp?) schools. (too busy to look up spelling)

[Arlos]

Pretty sure it included private school kids as well, Donnel. Home school, I have no idea. As an aside, I hate the idea of home schooling overall. Talk about crippling a kid for life when it comes to interaction with the real world. Such a kid will in no way have the same development of interpersonal social skills as someone who has to interact with 10s or 100s of kids a day. Simply impossible to have happen. Not to mention, what happens when they go off to college, and are suddenly thrust into a radically different environment than they have been used to, dealing not only with the normal separation issues, but absolute culture shock as well. They're completely set up to fail. No, home schooling is a big mistake.

In any case, I couldn't find anything definetive in the article on which sets of students it covered. Sine it makes no specification that it is only public school students, I am inclined to believe it's all students of given ages. Would be pretty irrisponsible of them to ignore an entire subset of students, I'd think. Dunno for sure though, and certainly can't prove anything.

-Arlos

[Langston]

16,000 x 50 is not millions, it's not even 1 million.

I think you don't give enough credit to private and homeschooled kids though. There's alot more then most think, and I'm not just talking about private parochial (sp?) schools. (too busy to look up spelling)

I'm not sure I understand the bolded statement. Where does the 50 come from? Are you saying that there are only 1 million public school kids in the US?

As far as private schools - I went to private school for half of my grade school years. One was parochial, one was not. I know how the kids were. We had 2 girls drop out of our class my senior year because they were pregnant... and at least half of the other kids were having sex with each other. It's NOT uncommon in private schools... and the small margin of reduction that MIGHT exist (I was very liberal dropping it to 25% in my previous post) would have almost zero statistical impact on the whole.

I believe home schooled kids can't make up even 1% of the population. If you disagree with that, I would be very interested to see some data supporting your claim that there are more.

Regardless, Donnel - I'm not trying to derail this topic into a debate over the numbers of private/homeschooled kids. I was just trying to explain how statistical samples and margins of error work in simple terms.

[Donnel]

They said their sample size was 10k to 16k from each of the 50 states.

Arlos, that's a common criticism of homeschooling. I don't have anything in front of me atm, but I think it's also a common misconception. There's been alot of findings that show homeschooled kids who are also strongly religious perform better in college, and the workplace then those who are homeschooled but not religious. So there maybe something said for an increased work ethic, or perhaps the social interactions that come from being involved in a church organization.

I know that my niece and all 6 of my nephews are very well adjusted. They also get alot of time with other children at church and through the homeschool organiztion that is setup in this area. They have science fairs and spelling bee's and all those extra activities that "real" schoold provide.

[Lyion]

Thats 16k total, Don. Not 90k. So their sample size is even smaller than you are giving them credit for,

Although I believe it's solely from high schools, and few home or private school kids.

[Zanchief]

So people who go to church have a better work ethic?

[Lyion]

As an aside, I hate the idea of home schooling overall. Talk about crippling a kid for life when it comes to interaction with the real world. Such a kid will in no way have the same development of interpersonal social skills as someone who has to interact with 10s or 100s of kids a day. Simply impossible to have happen. Not to mention, what happens when they go off to college, and are suddenly thrust into a radically different environment than they have been used to, dealing not only with the normal separation issues, but absolute culture shock as well. They're completely set up to fail. No, home schooling is a big mistake.

As an aside, I completely agree with this point, Arlos. Even the parents who try hard to socially develop their kids end up with regressive teenagers lacking the normal social skills we take for granted.

[Donnel]

YRBS, a component of CDC's Youth Risk Behavior Surveillance System, measures the self-reported prevalence of health risk behaviors among adolescents through representative national, state, and local surveys. The six biennial national surveys conducted during 1991--2001 used independent, three-stage cluster samples to obtain cross-sectional data representative of students in grades 9--12 in all 50 states and the District of Columbia. During 1991--2001, sample sizes ranged from 10,904 to 16,296 students, school response rates ranged from 70% to 79%, student response rates ranged from 83% to 90%, and overall response rates ranged from 60% to 70%.

Sounds like all high-school age persons attending school, regardless of other factors to me. If you want more detail, read the article link I posted, not going to reprint it in its entirety here.

-Arlos

No I think it was that much from each state, not 16k total, else why would there be a variation on the sample size amounts?

[Lyion]

During 1991--2001, sample sizes ranged from 10,904 to 16,296 students, school response rates ranged from 70% to 79%, student response rates ranged from 83% to 90%, and overall response rates ranged from 60% to 70%.

The different sample sizes were from the different years.

[Donnel]

So people who go to church have a better work ethic?

Not better to the extent that others who don't go to church have worse, though that is kinda what it sounded like I was saying.

Better within the subset of homeschooled children. Like I said I don't have the figures, but children who are raised in a conservative religious environment show more signs of the discipline required to really invest themselves in their homeschool education then those who are homeschooled outside of those types of homes.

[Donnel]

During 1991--2001, sample sizes ranged from 10,904 to 16,296 students, school response rates ranged from 70% to 79%, student response rates ranged from 83% to 90%, and overall response rates ranged from 60% to 70%.

The different sample sizes were from the different years.

Oh I see that now...

wow.. 16k doesn't seem indicative at all, though I still think 50% is a fairly accurate percentage sad to say. I blame that on the humanism of our times.

[Zanchief]

So people who go to church have a better work ethic?

Not better to the extent that others who don't go to church have worse, though that is kinda what it sounded like I was saying.

Better within the subset of homeschooled children. Like I said I don't have the figures, but children who are raised in a conservative religious environment show more signs of the discipline required to really invest themselves in their homeschool education then those who are homeschooled outside of those types of homes.

um? So killing dear and yelling at Clintons help raise a productive child?

[Langston]

It's a stastical sample, Donnel - you don't have to interview every single person to get enough data to form a conclusion. The margin of error is listed to show that there is a chance of variance from the final result of the analysis - but it's a small margin.

In my statement regarding "millions and millions" I was talking about the entire population of students - not the ones interviewed for this study. We were talking about two different things.

[Donnel]

So people who go to church have a better work ethic?

Not better to the extent that others who don't go to church have worse, though that is kinda what it sounded like I was saying.

Better within the subset of homeschooled children. Like I said I don't have the figures, but children who are raised in a conservative religious environment show more signs of the discipline required to really invest themselves in their homeschool education then those who are homeschooled outside of those types of homes.

um? So killing dear and yelling at Clintons help raise a productive child?

Nice stereotypes there

[Zanchief]

So people who go to church have a better work ethic?

Not better to the extent that others who don't go to church have worse, though that is kinda what it sounded like I was saying.

Better within the subset of homeschooled children. Like I said I don't have the figures, but children who are raised in a conservative religious environment show more signs of the discipline required to really invest themselves in their homeschool education then those who are homeschooled outside of those types of homes.

um? So killing dear and yelling at Clintons help raise a productive child?

Nice stereotypes there

I was thinking the same thing.

[Donnel]

*shrug* my Bible tells me to "do all to the glory of God"

Most people work ethic is "do enough not to get fired"

Seems a fair comparison.

[Eziekial]

Still, high school students will embellish these stats with,"Oh My God I like, had sex with 4 girls before I hit puberty! I ain't no virgin!" Or whatever lingo they use now.

[Martrae]

Funny that homeschooling has come up. I decided to homeschool my kids this year.

If done properly, I see no reason why a child taught at home cannot function properly in college or work. I've known MANY homeschooled children (I worked at a library for 10 years) and for the most part they were the most well-behaved, bright kids to visit the library. They also were the kids with the most curious minds and love of researching new subjects. By contrast most of the kids in the public schools were disruptive and constantly kicked out of the library. They did the minimum required and rarely looked up stuff just for the fun of it. It's almost like the joy of learning was taken from them by the school system.

My neighbor is currently homeschooling her 5 kids and their house is one of the hubs of the neighborhood. They are highly active in MANY activities that allows them to interact with other kids and they aren't in the least socially backward.

[Zanchief]

*shrug* my Bible tells me to "do all to the glory of God"

Most people work ethic is "do enough not to get fired"

Seems a fair comparison.

So your study has a sample of one and some conjecture. Pretty conclusive data.

[Donnel]

Never said I'd done a study on it. Said I'd read some findings that I will have to locate before I can post them.

We were comparing stereotypes though, that's a different discussion. If the MTV generation shows us anything it's that people want to do only the bare minimum.

If it's acceptable to say that 50% of high school students have sex before they graduate, then it's perfectly acceptable to say that "most people" do just enough not to get fired (50% is almost a majority)

[Zanchief]

Never said I'd done a study on it. Said I'd read some findings that I will have to locate before I can post them.

We were comparing stereotypes though, that's a different discussion. If the MTV generation shows us anything it's that people want to do only the bare minimum.

If it's acceptable to say that 50% of high school students have sex before they graduate, then it's perfectly acceptable to say that "most people" do just enough not to get fired (50% is almost a majority)

"Most people" include your flock to, chief.

[Donnel]

Except for those who actually chose to follow the commands of the shepherd.


PS Those were the very people I was talking about.

[Zanchief]

So you're saying religious people are harder working than normal people. That statement is 100% absolutely full of shit.

It's like saying Republicans are stupider than Democrats, because you get stuck with all the moronic rednecks.

[Donnel]

*sigh*

That's not what I said at all. I said that committed Christians who follow actually strive to live like according to the scriptures are harder working.