Experts blame Bush budget cuts for Katrina recovery problems

[Zanchief]

Jesus Fucking Christ. He's like a junior high student giving a 'speech'. He's just FUCKING READING and LOOKING UP from time to time. He isn't saying anything. Jesus, what the fuck is wrong with him?

Terrorist.

[Arlos]

Your statement that it would require conversion for "millions of cars" for biodiesel just shows what little you know about it. ANY diesel engine can run biodiesel RIGHT NOW. There's no expense, there's no conversion, you dump the fuel in the tank and it runs. Period. Usually with less pollution than normal diesel. No, most private vehicles are not diesel powered. But every single semi truck is. How about all the public busses, all the trains, all the boats that run on diesel. Plus there ARE private cars that run on it. Every single one of those engines can run on biodiesel right this minute, at ZERO cost.

If grown to economies of scale, it was worked out that biodiesel can cost almost the exact same amount per gallon as normal diesel, and that was calculated a year or two back, BEFORE we had $50/barrel much less $70/barrel crude prices. Pardon me for preferring to deal with our dependence on foreign oil (and wasn't it YOU who was bitching about needing to lessen it, not me?) by a sustainable and environmentally friendly way than one that could ruin the Florida coast or an important untouched habitat for all kidns of animals, including birds that migrate to the continental US. YOUR method merely postpones having to deal with the underlying issue for 5-10 years, and causes all sorts of collateral damage.

As for New Orleans, which is going to cost less: Spending 10 billion to reinforce the levee system with proven technology like is found in the Netherlands, that we know works... *OR* spend probably in excess of a trillion dollars to completely bulldoze the place, give it back to nature and move it somewhere (and WHERE exactly are you suggesting?) and replace every single private citizen's property and every single business' property with equivalent replacements, plus build a new shipping hub to handle all of the traffic from the midwest and the rest of the world. Which of those is more feasable, hmmm?

Maybe now the politicians will finally listen to the scientists that have been saying for YEARS that the wetlands needed to be rebuilt. Maybe SOMETHING will finally be done about it, because the additional wetlands could have made all the difference in saving New Orleans.

BTW, you didn't comment on why in hell didn't the current FEMA agency actually, you know, look at the plan they had in the 90s. Why aren't there multiple pumping ships off the gulf coast right now helping to dry the place out, and why aren't there multiple hospital ships already on station to deal with the wounded, instead of having 1 which didn't even get underway until TODAY. I realize you have the Bush cock firmly in mouth, but can even you excuse that?

-Arlos

[10sun]

You also cut down the need for logging, as hemp paper is actually better quality paper than wood-pulp, so no more need to cut trees to turn into Charmin.

I just imagined people wiping their asses til they got high with the Charmin mention.

[Zanchief]

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2005 ... 75-cp.html

[xaoshaen]

As for New Orleans, which is going to cost less: Spending 10 billion to reinforce the levee system with proven technology like is found in the Netherlands, that we know works... *OR* spend probably in excess of a trillion dollars to completely bulldoze the place, give it back to nature and move it somewhere (and WHERE exactly are you suggesting?) and replace every single private citizen's property and every single business' property with equivalent replacements, plus build a new shipping hub to handle all of the traffic from the midwest and the rest of the world. Which of those is more feasable, hmmm?
-Arlos

The only problem with that is that the Netherlands aren't really subject to hurricanes that I know of. You're certaintly right that moving New Orleans isn't really feasible, though. Economics pretty much dictates that we will have a port at the mouth of the Mississippi. Human nature dictates that people will live their if it's economically advantageous, regardless of potential disaster, as long as it's not staring them in the face.

[Arlos]

They're not subject to hurricanes, but the storms that blow in off the north sea aren't exactly negligble. I'm not saying we can use exactly their system, but they do have MUCH better technology for levees, dikes, etc. than we do, so it only makes sense to use what already exists and add onto it as necessary until it's sufficient to deal with the problem.

-Arlos

[Martrae]

You really think I'm overreacting? This is much worse than 9/11 and will have a MUCH wider range of aftereffects. What about all those businesses that just aren't there anymore? Insurance companies that will probably go under? People out of work by the millions with no homes or hope of recovery anything any time soon? Farmers that cannot ship via the Mississippi anymore? Gas prices that will drive up the cost of goods shipped via trucks? The sheer logistics of rerouting everything away from NO when it was a major hub?

It's not that big an issue to pick up and move across country if the will is there. When the steel industry in Ohio turned into the rust belt my parents did just that and we moved to CA for a year. Which is better, to relocate when you have your furniture and other personal effects or after your city is destroyed and millions of others are doing the same?

[Zanchief]

You really think I'm overreacting? This is much worse than 9/11 and will have a MUCH wider range of aftereffects.

It's not that big an issue to pick up and move across country if the will is there.

Stick to one point in the same post, Mart.

[Martrae]

I was answering you and Ashly First part was the reply to current events. The second to people who live year after year in areas that get flooded or destroyed and do nothing but ask for another handout when the law of averages catches up.

[kaharthemad]

And again Arlos what do you do with those people driving cars that are not deisel. I was not talking about the deisel cars out on the road right now. I do know they can use Biodeisel. I believe some need inexpensive converters for it...not sure as I am not a mechanic. Those amount to about 15 percent of the current standard passengers cars on the road. What about the other 85 percent?

[mappatazee]

And again Arlos what do you do with those people driving cars that are not deisel. I was not talking about the deisel cars out on the road right now. I do know they can use Biodeisel. I believe some need inexpensive converters for it...not sure as I am not a mechanic. Those amount to about 15 percent of the current standard passengers cars on the road. What about the other 85 percent?

That's a small inconvenience for THE INDUSTRIAL WORLD RUNNING OUT OF CRUDE OIL.

[mofish]

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/21af58dc-1b1c- ... 511c8.html

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArt ... UNDING.xml

Im sure Bush pushing through about 50% worth of cuts in hurricane protection, the known most likely catastrophic disaster that could possibly hit the USA, has nothing at all to do with this.

[Lyion]

Stop drinking the Kool Aid!

The Corps' New Orleans district in 2003 spent about $409 million on construction contracts, dredging and maintenance for the state's waterways, real estate purchases, private sector design contracts and in-house expenditures, according to the Corps. That more than doubles the $200 million the district spent in 1991.

The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers said Thursday that a lack of funding for hurricane-protection projects around New Orleans did not contribute to the disastrous flooding that followed Hurricane Katrina.

In a telephone interview with reporters, corps officials said that although portions of the flood-protection levees remain incomplete, the levees near Lake Pontchartrain that gave way--inundating much of the city--were completed and in good condition before the hurricane.

However, they noted that the levees were designed for a Category 3 hurricane and couldn't handle the ferocious winds and raging waters from Hurricane Katrina, which was a Category 4 storm when it hit the coastline. The decision to build levees for a Category 3 hurricane was made decades ago based on a cost-benefit analysis.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/loca ... 189346.sto ry?coll=chi-news-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true

[Tikker]

Neato that canada has ships and supplies ready to help with the cleanup/salvage/rescue yet US hasn't even requested help

[Tacks]

Were those US Army Corps of Engineers the same ones who decided that building levees suitable for a cat 3 hurricane were cost effective?

[Arlos]

Kahar, there's not much you CAN do about current cars. But consider this: what has more impact on the nation's economy: personal driving or cost of shipping? I think we can both agree it is the latter, yes? Now, what fuel is used to ship stuff? That's right, diesel. So, what fuel is it that is most critical to reduce prices on for the national economy? Again, that's right, diesel.

Now, those drilling areas and refineries you want to build. How long does it take to build all that? 2 years at the earliest? Especially on the north coast of Alaska where you really CAN'T build in the winter? We can have massive quantities of biodiesel produced and ready to go inside of a year.

Now, with diesel production being taken care of by fields of plants, how much of the crude oil that is currently being refined into diesel can be further refined into gasoline? I don't know, but I can't imagine you can't use at least SOME of it. Also, if you give government incentives (tax breaks, etc.) to the automtive industry to build, and the consumer to buy diesel vehicles, you're going to see a huge upswing in diesel ownership, especially as the biodiesel fuel gets to be cheaper than gasoline, which is inevitable given the current state of oil in the world. Now, I believe the figure I saw was that on average, american car owners replace their car every 6 years. By 2-3 years down the road, what will the percentage of diesel and ultra-fuel-efficient hybrids be? How much is that going to lessen demand for gasoline, and what does lowered demand do for prices?

Now, back to the original topic: You still haven't said how you can conscion the Bush-era FEMA for not actually following plans that were drawn up in the 90s, and why there aren't hospital ships in the gulf RIGHT NOW helping with the sick and injured, not to mention pumping ships to help fix New Orleans. If I were a resident of the area, I sure as FUCK would want an answer to the question of why that didn't happen, and I would expect to see people fired and/or prosecuted for it not.

-Arlos

[araby]

I can understand what you're saying Martrae. then I read Kahar's post and I think, there's all this pressure now to conserve energy and buy hybrid cars, when they're very expensive and there is a waiting list for them.

It's a lot like moving your family to another city/town. I wouldn't be able to afford to move right now, or to be able to buy a hybrid. Though I'd like to do both and with proper planning I should be able to. I also wouldn't able to afford starting over if a disaster were to happen here.

[Tacks]

Hybrids are not expensive and you get massive government paybacks.

[mofish]

The only people drinking kool-aid in this thread are people that think the response from any level of government, aside from Mayor Nagin and the local response, hasnt been a horribly mismanaged clusterfuck. From Bush down.

[xaoshaen]

Were those US Army Corps of Engineers the same ones who decided that building levees suitable for a cat 3 hurricane were cost effective?

Unlikely. I'm not familiar with the history of that particular decision, but generally politicians are the ones who decide who much money will be budgeted for construction projects involving the Corps of Engineers. It's even less likely given that the decision was made "decades ago".

[xaoshaen]

The only people drinking kool-aid in this thread are people that think the response from any level of government, aside from Mayor Nagin and the local response, hasnt been a horribly mismanaged clusterfuck. From Bush down.

Hahah, you aren't holding the mayor responsible for the grevious local failures? Neither the state of Louisiana nor the city of New Orleans are blameless in this clusterfuck.

[mappatazee]

The only people drinking kool-aid in this thread are people that think the response from any level of government, aside from Mayor Nagin and the local response, hasnt been a horribly mismanaged clusterfuck. From Bush down.

<a href="http://www.kunstler.com/mags_diary14.html" target=blank>Clusterfuck Nation</a>

[mofish]

http://www.libera.be/files/nagin.mp3

[Captain Insano]

bush fucks up

what is new

No he isn't... Bush hates black people. He's a redneck remember? He's withholding aid on purpose.

Kudoes to him.