Mega Corp's and Capitalism

[Kramer]

So this has something to do with the Big Three AUto Manuf.'s we have been discussing. Here is my idea and I am wondering what you all think about it:

1) One of the basic tenets of Capitalism is competition (you have to stay on your toes with marketing, product quality, pricing, etc. to stay in business)

2) In the United States I have noticed that the larger you become as a corporation (typically a multi-national) the more you are sheltered from true Capitalistic forces, primarily, competition (see point #1)

3) Small businesses end up bearing the brunt of the harshest competitive forces and realities

4) Once you are a multi-national corporation employing thousands or more people, there does seem to be a legitimate interest in keeping you afloat so that those people don't lose their jobs

5) It also seems that this can be taken to a detrimental extreme (FORD, GM, and CHRYSLER and Much of the Airline Industry being supported by the GOVT.)

TAWLK AMUNGST YA SELVES!

[Lyion]

So this has something to do with the Big Three AUto Manuf.'s we have been discussing. Here is my idea and I am wondering what you all think about it:

1) One of the basic tenets of Capitalism is competition (you have to stay on your toes with marketing, product quality, pricing, etc. to stay in business)

We are not a purely capitalistic society. We have anti trust laws, and other things to enable fair play to reign, although it certainly does not always work. Also, are you promoting global free market capitalism, with no restrictions or intra state solely with limited restrictions? Obviously countries that are state run can produce things cheaper than free market ones. Should that be taken into account?

2) In the United States I have noticed that the larger you become as a corporation (typically a multi-national) the more you are sheltered from true Capitalistic forces, primarily, competition (see point #1)

Actually, the opposite is true. The bigger you are, the more difficult it is to be lean and compete with the smaller companies. Also, you have to do more to be successful than a Mom and Pop store. I trust my local personal mechanic more than a random Midas guy. I trust the local software store more than Best Buy. Neither make more money, but both to me offer better product and service.

3) Small businesses end up bearing the brunt of the harshest competitive forces and realities

Thats totally subjective and not really accurate. A small business can have a down quarter and not have a hiccup. Most large corporations are publicly traded, and a bad quarter will cost them much, much more.

Also, it's a lot harder to grow a large business than a small one. There is less opportunity and more pressure. A small good player can make your large business into a medium one rather fast, as we've seen happen.

4) Once you are a multi-national corporation employing thousands or more people, there does seem to be a legitimate interest in keeping you afloat so that those people don't lose their jobs

There's an interest in keeping every company afloat, small and large but the bigger ones tend to have more special interests in their pocket, and thus get more for themselves. That's not capitalism, though, it's corruption.

5) It also seems that this can be taken to a detrimental extreme (FORD, GM, and CHRYSLER and Much of the Airline Industry being supported by the GOVT.)

Well, the Airlines and Big Three are not the average big business company. Obviously they are vastly different from IBM, Mobil, or Wal Mart.

Competition is what is currently doing in the above mentioned business's. Southwest is crushing the older airline companies. Foreign automakers are currently pounding American ones.

That's pretty pure capitalism, and the government is not stepping in and protecting these companies. What it is doing is looking out for workers who have their lives invested in large companies and could possibly lose everything. Government has an obligation to its citizens. Given one in seven Americans works for an auto company, I'd say that's a pretty big responsibility.

The only real robber baron we have left is Microsoft, who uses their desktop monopoly in an anti trust way, and yet gets away with it. You have many choices when you buy a car. Really, MS is the only mainstream computer OS choice. Amazingly, you don't include them on your list and they have probably been more damaging to capitalism in the last 20 years than every other mega corp combined.

[Kramer]

P.S. One fact I assume will be obvious is that I have no special knowledge on the topic, which is why i am asking you guys what you think.... not telling you what reality is

[Vincenti]

Ahh Lyion ever the mouthpiece/stooge of big biz/gov

2) In the United States I have noticed that the larger you become as a corporation (typically a multi-national) the more you are sheltered from true Capitalistic forces, primarily, competition (see point #1)

Actually, the opposite is true. The bigger you are, the more difficult it is to be lean and compete with the smaller companies. Also, you have to do more to be successful than a Mom and Pop store. I trust my local personal mechanic more than a random Midas guy. I trust the local software store more than Best Buy. Neither make more money, but both to me offer better product and service.

Bullshit. plain and simple. Dell can buy cheaper than mom and pop shops because they buy in volume. Dell also has the buying power to make their suppliers wait 30 days for payment of the supplies used to build your new computer that you paid for 7-10 days before they even buld that system and thus use those parts. Thus Dell is able to drop the market price on computers to below what the mom and pop shops are paying for parts to assemble their systems, bye-bye mom and pop computer stores. Toys'r'us can afford huge online e-commerce sites because they have the resources to maintain that sort of thing. Walmart can afford MUCH better advertising than any mom and pop shop. Walmart can drop an entire local economy because they compete with EVERYONE and because of that buying power can offer much smaller prices. McDonalds can afford marketing and product research whereas the moom and pop shops have to be original and hope their ideas catch on and sell well.

3) Small businesses end up bearing the brunt of the harshest competitive forces and realities

Thats totally subjective and not really accurate. A small business can have a down quarter and not have a hiccup. Most large corporations are publicly traded, and a bad quarter will cost them much, much more.

Bullshit again! A local gas station has a bad quarer and mom and pop cant pay the rent. Exxon has a bad quarter and they can delve into their multi-billion dollar reserves to keep them afloat. Most larger business also invest their reserves so their money is making them money Mom and pop have to use their reserves to feed themselves.

Also, it's a lot harder to grow a large business than a small one. There is less opportunity and more pressure. A small good player can make your large business into a medium one rather fast, as we've seen happen.

Only when Mom and pop have a really great business plan and are very lucky. Thousands of local businesses are lost to corporate ass-rape, how many major players can you think of that were taken out by someone who wasn't as big or bigger than the victim?

4) Once you are a multi-national corporation employing thousands or more people, there does seem to be a legitimate interest in keeping you afloat so that those people don't lose their jobs

There's an interest in keeping every company afloat, small and large but the bigger ones tend to have more special interests in their pocket, and thus get more for themselves. That's not capitalism, though, it's corruption.

ok I will give you that one

5) It also seems that this can be taken to a detrimental extreme (FORD, GM, and CHRYSLER and Much of the Airline Industry being supported by the GOVT.)

Well, the Airlines and Big Three are not the average big business company. Obviously they are vastly different from IBM, Mobil, or Wal Mart.

Competition is what is currently doing in the above mentioned business's. Southwest is crushing the older airline companies. Foreign automakers are currently pounding American ones.

That's pretty pure capitalism, and the government is not stepping in and protecting these companies. What it is doing is looking out for workers who have their lives invested in large companies and could possibly lose everything. Government has an obligation to its citizens. Given one in seven Americans works for an auto company, I'd say that's a pretty big responsibility.

Foriegn auto manufacturers are pounding American Auto Manufacturers because Americans produce shitty cars (I know we have had this discussion a thousand times, but I still say American cars are shit compared to their European and Japanese counterparts)

How are the Big Three any different than Walmart? Both are motivated by profit, not making a better product or a better service? Southwest is stomping the older airlines because they provide a better service.The older airlines are/were stagnant and needed a good ass whooping anyways jsut to get them on their toes again. So yes Southwest does beat the crap out of the older airlines ...in the areas they both operate, but I bet southwest isnt beating Delta in New York... Sorry I am not buying into that bullshit either.

The only real robber baron we have left is Microsoft, who uses their desktop monopoly in an anti trust way, and yet gets away with it. You have many choices when you buy a car. Really, MS is the only mainstream computer OS choice. Amazingly, you don't include them on your list and they have probably been more damaging to capitalism in the last 20 years than every other mega corp combined.

Bullshit yet again MS is no different than Walmart and actually imho Walmart is actually worse because they are taking out not just one area (like technology) but are taking out competition in the jewelery business, the home electronics, car repair, groceries, general merchandise, sportting goods, Pharmacies, et al.....

[Martrae]

I wouldn't be surprised to see Dell crash soon. That is all.

[Lyion]

Bullshit. plain and simple. Dell can buy cheaper than mom and pop shops because they buy in volume. Dell also has the buying power to make their suppliers wait 30 days for payment of the supplies used to build your new computer that you paid for 7-10 days before they even buld that system and thus use those parts. Thus Dell is able to drop the market price on computers to below what the mom and pop shops are paying for parts to assemble their systems, bye-bye mom and pop computer stores. Toys'r'us can afford huge online e-commerce sites because they have the resources to maintain that sort of thing. Walmart can afford MUCH better advertising than any mom and pop shop. Walmart can drop an entire local economy because they compete with EVERYONE and because of that buying power can offer much smaller prices. McDonalds can afford marketing and product research whereas the moom and pop shops have to be original and hope their ideas catch on and sell well.

Then why can I buy a superior system CHEAPER from Cyberpower than I can from Dell, Vin?

Look at what Etoys did recently, in kicking Toys r us's ass last year. That certainly belies your point here.

The local burger place here crushes McDonalds in business, and their product is ten times better to boot.

Wal Mart is a bad example as they are the Borg and their ways are as anti capitalistic as possible, but thats another argument in and of itself.

Oh, and it pains me to be called the voice of big business. I'd like to think I'm for "FAIR" business. Why in the world would you slap such a label on me, unless you just hate all of big business and see anything positive said as a personal attack? Sheesh!

Bullshit again! A local gas station has a bad quarer and mom and pop cant pay the rent. Exxon has a bad quarter and they can delve into their multi-billion dollar reserves to keep them afloat. Most larger business also invest their reserves so their money is making them money Mom and pop have to use their reserves to feed themselves.

Ok, but say Hassans Gas Station has had profit for 5 years and has a nice tidy investment. He has a decent reserve and is starting to add things to his shop. Suddenly, a gas hike causes a slowdown in profits for him. His business loses no valuation and due to his success he can diversify into Hassans local market or Hassans Butt Hutt of tobacco or whatever.

If Mobils offshore rigs are shutdown or they are slapped with corroborating on price fixing, their stock could tank, their companies valuation goes down the tube, and they are suddenly looking at a hostile takeover, tossed executives, and other faster issues.

If you think Big Business is so bulletproof, I need to remind you of Enron, Worldcom, Delta, Delphi, and many, many other companies that prove the simple point that size does not matter, only the soundness of the strategy and luck in the market.

A person with nothing obviously isn't as prepared for problems as one with something, but your analogy is somewhat hyperbole, and not at all accurate. Size does not indicate stability at all!

Foriegn auto manufacturers are pounding American Auto Manufacturers because Americans produce shitty cars (I know we have had this discussion a thousand times, but I still say American cars are shit compared to their European and Japanese counterparts)

Thats your opinion but American cars are on average BETTER than all Euro models, and beat two of four Japanese Auto manufacturers in most categories.

What's KILLING the US Auto Manufacturers isn't competition, it's the auto unions and crushing benefits that they are required to pay for due to deals made in the mid 19th century that they are forced to pay for.

There's a reason GM cars are called HMOs on wheels.

How are the Big Three any different than Walmart? Both are motivated by profit, not making a better product or a better service? Southwest is stomping the older airlines because they provide a better service.The older airlines are/were stagnant and needed a good ass whooping anyways jsut to get them on their toes again. So yes Southwest does beat the crap out of the older airlines ...in the areas they both operate, but I bet southwest isnt beating Delta in New York... Sorry I am not buying into that bullshit either.

ALL companies are motivated by profit and success. I'm not getting your point here, either. Airline Companines are hamstrung by the same union and benefit issues as the Auto ones.

[Tikker]

I still don't see how you can say american cars are as good, or better than the imports


when I see cars dead on the side of the road, they're almost always ford/gm

shit, my friends truck spontaneously combusted on her drive way a couple months ago, and that was a 2003 chev, jeje

[Harrison]

Wal Mart is a bad example as they are the Borg and their ways are as anti capitalistic as possible, but thats another argument in and of itself.

I rofl'd.