Stupid in America - 20/20 report on public schools.

[Lyion]

Thats annually.

[Lyion]

Thats annually. It actually is higher since they leave certain costs out.

[Arlos]

Someone sent me this. Supposedly it is the Final for graduation from the 8th grade in Salina, Kansas in 1895. How many people even on here could pass this test if they just went and took it? I know some of the answers, but some I have no clue on. Anyway, it just goes to illustrate how different the education system is these days.

8th Grade Final Exam: Salina, KS -1895

Grammar (Time, one hour)

1. Give nine rules for the use of capital letters.
2. Name the parts of speech and define those that have no modifications.
3. Define verse, stanza and paragraph
4. What are the principal parts of a verb? Give principal parts
of"lie,""play," and "run."
5. Define case; Illustrate each case.
6. What is punctuation? Give rules for principal marks of punctuation.
7 - 10. Write a composition of about 150 words and show therein that you
understand the practical use of the rules of grammar.

Arithmetic (Time, 1.25 hours)


1. Name and define the Fundamental Rules of Arithmetic.
2. A wagon box is 2 ft. deep, 10 feet long, and 3 ft. wide. How many
bushels of wheat will it hold?
3. If a load of wheat weighs 3942 lbs., what is it worth at 50cts/bushel,
deducting 1050 lbs. for tare?
4. District No. 33 has a valuation of $35,000. What is the necessary levy
to carry on a school seven months at $50 per month, incidentals?
5. Find the cost of 6720 lbs. coal at $6.00 per ton.
6. Find the interest of $512.60 for 8 months and 18 days at 7 percent.
7. What is the cost of 40 boards 12 inches wide and 16 ft. long at $20 per
metre?
8. Find bank discount on $300 for 90 days (no grace) at 10 percent.
9. What is the cost of a square farm at $15 per acre, the distance of which
is 640 rods?
10. Write a Bank Check, a Promissory Note, and a Receipt.

U.S. History (Time, 45 minutes)


1. Give the epochs into which U.S. History is divided.
2. Give an account of the discovery of America by Columbus.
3. Relate the causes and results of the Revolutionary War.
4. Show the territorial growth of the United States.
5. Tell what you can of the history of Kansas.
6. Describe three of the most prominent battles of the Rebellion.
7. Who were the following: Morse, Whitney, Fulton, Bell, Lincoln, Penn, and
Howe?
8. Name events connected with the following dates: 1607, 1620, 1800, 1849,
1865.

Orthography (Time, one hour)


1. What is meant by the following: Alphabet, phonetic, orthography,
etymology, syllabication
2. What are elementary sounds? How classified?
3. What are the following, and give examples of each: Trigraph, subvocals,
diphthong, cognate letters, linguals
4. Give four substitutes for caret 'u.'
5. Give two rules for spelling words with final 'e.' Name two exceptions
under each rule.
6. Give two uses of silent letters in spelling. Illustrate each.
7. Define the following prefixes and use in connection with a word: bi,
dis, mis, pre, semi, post, non, inter, mono, sup.
8. Mark diacritically and divide into syllables the following, and name the
sign that indicates the sound: card, ball, mercy, sir, odd, cell, rise,
blood, fare, last.
9. Use the following correctly in sentences: cite, site, sight, fane,
fain, feign, vane, vain, vein, raze, raise, rays.
10. Write 10 words frequently mispronounced and indicate pronunciation by
use of diacritical marks and by syllabication.

Geography (Time, one hour)


1 What is climate? Upon what does climate depend?
2. How do you account for the extremes of climate in Kansas?
3. Of what use are rivers? Of what use is the ocean?
4. Describe the mountains of North America
5. Name and describe the following: Monrovia, Odessa, Denver, Manitoba,
Hecla, Yukon, St. Helena, Juan Fernandez, Aspinwall and Orinoco.
6. Name and locate the principal trade centers of the U.S.
7. Name all the republics of Europe and give the capital of each.
8. Why is the Atlantic Coast colder than the Pacific in the same latitude?
9. Describe the process by which the water of the ocean returns to the
sources of rivers.
10. Describe the movements of the! earth. Give the inclination of the
earth.

PS. No, I don't think voucher schools are the answer.

Biggest ways to improve education: 1) dump out 2/3 of the management structure, useless paper-pushing beurocrats, 2) up the wages of teachers by at least 50%, to make it so that an entry-level teacher with a Bachelor's degree makes just as much as, say, a entry level programmer with a Bachelor's degree, in order to attract more people to teaching. 3) Have some method in place to a) fire incompetant teachers, and b) force ALL teachers to go through re-training in their specialties every 5-7 years. (give 'em a year off teaching, pay for them to go take a few semesters of university courses, so when they come back they're re-energized and fully up-to-date.) 4) Give schools and teachers the necessary teeth to fail kids who are failing again. These days schools hate to fail anyone, as 90% of the time the parents rant at the school and sue them. 5) Change teacher employment terms to be full-year, so they would get paid over summer vacation. Right now, last I talked to a teacher about it, they got 0 money for summer months, so had to scramble to find other work in order to afford life during those months, unless they happened to be teaching a summer class. Could use it instead for teachers not instructing during summer to send them to a class themselves of some kind.

These changes (and others) need to happen in the public school realm, not private schools. Vouchers won't fix the problem. At least here in CA, the way they were trying to introduce vouchers, you would have had complete off-the-wall schools springing up, and it ultimately would worked out to be just a handout to rich people already sending their kids to private schools, as anyone too poor to afford it before vouchers, generally still couldn't after, either.

-Arlos

[Adivina]

Arlos, they may not be questions you can answer, but you have to remember that is the shit the kids have been taught that year. How much crap from school did you have to memorize that you don't remember now.

I know I had tests that were things such as: "Write Julius Ceasar's speach from line whatever to whatever" of course I could not do that now, but you damn well bet your ass that was something assigned to us, so I learned it and passed. The definetions and shit they ask for on that test are all standard things studied around that grade level. The test is simple memorize and regurgitate.

[Adivina]

Not saying that I think that is a good way to teach btw, children should learn things that will benefit them in the long run, not memorize passages from Shakespeare and have to recite them for a grade.

[Eziekial]

Right, since it's obvious that our school system has made huge improvements over the 150 years since it shifted from private to public. Why not post some questions for Kansas 8th graders now?

[Adivina]

Until Zeek pointed that out I did not even notice the questions were over 100 years old. Kids are asked to memorize the same basic shit today, its not that different, at least where I went to school it wasn't..... well except they no longer ask us about bushels GG measurement systems.

[Martrae]

I was listening to some radio program the other day (wish I could remember what it was) and they were discussing school vouchers.

What they've seen happen is once schools start losing students they tend to clean up their act and actually improve things. This leads to a better education for the students who, for the lack of a better word, are stuck there. I really cannot see a down side to that. Sure some kids leave but even the ones staying are benefitting not losing out. And while some of those that left MIGHT get a better education than those that stay, at least they all are getting an improved education. I'd say that's better than all of them staying and having a sub-par one.

[Martrae]

Until Zeek pointed that out I did not even notice the questions were over 100 years old. Kids are asked to memorize the same basic shit today, its not that different, at least where I went to school it wasn't..... well except they no longer ask us about bushels GG measurement systems.

The only difference now is they will pass you regardless of you knowing the answers. 100 years ago your ass would have been repeating the grade.

[Jay]

I plan on running for state legistature in Florida in the next 3-4 years and will have school choice be one of my main planks in my platform. Stossel hit the nail squarely on the head. I can't believe more parents are not outrged by what goes on in their childrens' schools. It's almost like they feel a break in ranks would be a public admittance to child abuse and would rather keep up the charade than come clean. Pretty sad if you ask me.

Most parents don't care.

I wouldn't say that. I'd say, most parents don't know. The article states 76% of parents are satisfied. There's so much complaining about how much our public school system sucks but you really don't see it until it's at your kids' school and even then you can't be there everyday to see what goes on. It's hard to take the kids' word for it because they might just be griping about having to go to school in general.

[Darcler]

Until Zeek pointed that out I did not even notice the questions were over 100 years old. Kids are asked to memorize the same basic shit today, its not that different, at least where I went to school it wasn't..... well except they no longer ask us about bushels GG measurement systems.

The only difference now is they will pass you regardless of you knowing the answers. 100 years ago your ass would have been repeating the grade.

I was passed in all of my math classes because the teachers didnt want to have to try and teach me again. I wasnt stupid enough to go to special ed for math help, but I still have a hard time with simple addition and subtraction.

[Goose_Man]

I’m going to shift gears here and say that it’s not all the schools fault. Parents need to shoulder most of the blame here.

In today’s society kids don’t know how to respect anyone or anything especially them selves.

Start to parent your children and teach them morals, respect, and self esteem I'm pretty sure that the education system will see a huge up swing. Because the KIDS CARE.

Throwing money at the problem, getting better teachers or making the schools better wont do jack shit if the kids aren’t fixed.

[Adivina]

FHS - home of the 3rd year seniors ><

[Eldred]

I agree with alot of what is said here, but you have to remember this insn't totally the parents fault or the teachers fault, kids have to want to put forth some kind of effor to learn. I'm going back to school myself at 26 years of age for an engenering degree, most of the people in my class of 7 are younger 18-21 one guy is older 44. 4 of them are black 3 are white including me. And who wants to work in class I'll give you a guess. Who wants to talk and carry on and do anything but. And this is shit I'm paying for I'm not some poor ass ghetto nigger getting my way paid for me. So while I try to work and read and what not I've got some mother fuckers talking and being disruptive.

[Martrae]

Problem is the kids aren't being taught HOW to learn. They are shuffled thru the system whether they understand or not.

[Captain Insano]

Someone sent me this. Supposedly it is the Final for graduation from the 8th grade in Salina, Kansas in 1895. How many people even on here could pass this test if they just went and took it? I know some of the answers, but some I have no clue on. Anyway, it just goes to illustrate how different the education system is these days.

8th Grade Final Exam: Salina, KS -1895

Grammar (Time, one hour)

1. Give nine rules for the use of capital letters.
2. Name the parts of speech and define those that have no modifications.
3. Define verse, stanza and paragraph
4. What are the principal parts of a verb? Give principal parts
of"lie,""play," and "run."
5. Define case; Illustrate each case.
6. What is punctuation? Give rules for principal marks of punctuation.
7 - 10. Write a composition of about 150 words and show therein that you
understand the practical use of the rules of grammar.

Arithmetic (Time, 1.25 hours)


1. Name and define the Fundamental Rules of Arithmetic.
2. A wagon box is 2 ft. deep, 10 feet long, and 3 ft. wide. How many
bushels of wheat will it hold?
3. If a load of wheat weighs 3942 lbs., what is it worth at 50cts/bushel,
deducting 1050 lbs. for tare?
4. District No. 33 has a valuation of $35,000. What is the necessary levy
to carry on a school seven months at $50 per month, incidentals?
5. Find the cost of 6720 lbs. coal at $6.00 per ton.
6. Find the interest of $512.60 for 8 months and 18 days at 7 percent.
7. What is the cost of 40 boards 12 inches wide and 16 ft. long at $20 per
metre?
8. Find bank discount on $300 for 90 days (no grace) at 10 percent.
9. What is the cost of a square farm at $15 per acre, the distance of which
is 640 rods?
10. Write a Bank Check, a Promissory Note, and a Receipt.

U.S. History (Time, 45 minutes)


1. Give the epochs into which U.S. History is divided.
2. Give an account of the discovery of America by Columbus.
3. Relate the causes and results of the Revolutionary War.
4. Show the territorial growth of the United States.
5. Tell what you can of the history of Kansas.
6. Describe three of the most prominent battles of the Rebellion.
7. Who were the following: Morse, Whitney, Fulton, Bell, Lincoln, Penn, and
Howe?
8. Name events connected with the following dates: 1607, 1620, 1800, 1849,
1865.

Orthography (Time, one hour)


1. What is meant by the following: Alphabet, phonetic, orthography,
etymology, syllabication
2. What are elementary sounds? How classified?
3. What are the following, and give examples of each: Trigraph, subvocals,
diphthong, cognate letters, linguals
4. Give four substitutes for caret 'u.'
5. Give two rules for spelling words with final 'e.' Name two exceptions
under each rule.
6. Give two uses of silent letters in spelling. Illustrate each.
7. Define the following prefixes and use in connection with a word: bi,
dis, mis, pre, semi, post, non, inter, mono, sup.
8. Mark diacritically and divide into syllables the following, and name the
sign that indicates the sound: card, ball, mercy, sir, odd, cell, rise,
blood, fare, last.
9. Use the following correctly in sentences: cite, site, sight, fane,
fain, feign, vane, vain, vein, raze, raise, rays.
10. Write 10 words frequently mispronounced and indicate pronunciation by
use of diacritical marks and by syllabication.

Geography (Time, one hour)


1 What is climate? Upon what does climate depend?
2. How do you account for the extremes of climate in Kansas?
3. Of what use are rivers? Of what use is the ocean?
4. Describe the mountains of North America
5. Name and describe the following: Monrovia, Odessa, Denver, Manitoba,
Hecla, Yukon, St. Helena, Juan Fernandez, Aspinwall and Orinoco.
6. Name and locate the principal trade centers of the U.S.
7. Name all the republics of Europe and give the capital of each.
8. Why is the Atlantic Coast colder than the Pacific in the same latitude?
9. Describe the process by which the water of the ocean returns to the
sources of rivers.
10. Describe the movements of the! earth. Give the inclination of the
earth.

PS. No, I don't think voucher schools are the answer.

Biggest ways to improve education: 1) dump out 2/3 of the management structure, useless paper-pushing beurocrats, 2) up the wages of teachers by at least 50%, to make it so that an entry-level teacher with a Bachelor's degree makes just as much as, say, a entry level programmer with a Bachelor's degree, in order to attract more people to teaching. 3) Have some method in place to a) fire incompetant teachers, and b) force ALL teachers to go through re-training in their specialties every 5-7 years. (give 'em a year off teaching, pay for them to go take a few semesters of university courses, so when they come back they're re-energized and fully up-to-date.) 4) Give schools and teachers the necessary teeth to fail kids who are failing again. These days schools hate to fail anyone, as 90% of the time the parents rant at the school and sue them. 5) Change teacher employment terms to be full-year, so they would get paid over summer vacation. Right now, last I talked to a teacher about it, they got 0 money for summer months, so had to scramble to find other work in order to afford life during those months, unless they happened to be teaching a summer class. Could use it instead for teachers not instructing during summer to send them to a class themselves of some kind.

These changes (and others) need to happen in the public school realm, not private schools. Vouchers won't fix the problem. At least here in CA, the way they were trying to introduce vouchers, you would have had complete off-the-wall schools springing up, and it ultimately would worked out to be just a handout to rich people already sending their kids to private schools, as anyone too poor to afford it before vouchers, generally still couldn't after, either.

-Arlos

I think your suggestions sound fantastic...On paper.

The people that work for the U.S. Gov in any way, shape, or form, eventually end up sucking.

It doesn't matter how much you pay people and how good they are when they start. The completely screwed up systems that comprise our government will take the best educated, skilled and highly motivated person and turn them into a slothful leech given a few years.

The only way to unscrew schools it to let good ol' capitalism take over. The best schools will get the most students any way you slice it. Then someone else will come along and try and do it better to garner more market share. Rinse and repeat.

I really don't like dems and liberals very much because they have this mentality that putting the government in charge of anything is somehow a good idea given a certain criteria. The private sector can do ANYTHING 10x better than the government for 1/3 of the cost.

[Yamori]

Kids with a shred of common sense will have little desire to 'put forth effort' or 'care' in a shitty school system that forces them to show up and then proceeds to waste their time with trivial garbage and endless busy-work and memorization - not to mention the constant demands to knuckle under petty authority.

There will always be kids who won't engage in school, but if they actually made school a useful and meaningful thing it would probably at least be tolerated by many more people.

[Captain Insano]

Yamori is very right on this.

By about age 10 or so I was already on the track that my school teachers were more interested in providing my parents with free daycare instead of an actual education. All I learned was how to waste time making stupid Dioramas about Native Americans and presentation with 5 minutes of actual worth research and two months of cut and paste.

I mean who gives a damn about native americans anyways? They run casinoes and make fireworks. Done. Lets move on.

School is a joke in this country and until the capitalists ie: Libratarians and Republicans take back control from the socialists (democrats) are kids will continue to be fat, lazy and stupid.

[Parv]

10. Describe the movements of the! earth. Give the inclination of the
earth.

Theories on the movement of Earth didn't even start until 1912, with continental shift. The present theory of tectonic plates came around the 1940's, before being validated in the 1960's.

Fake email I wonder? Several of the other questions are trivial since the answer is in the question, or there is nothing to be answered.

[Martrae]

Kids with a shred of common sense will have little desire to 'put forth effort' or 'care' in a shitty school system that forces them to show up and then proceeds to waste their time with trivial garbage and endless busy-work and memorization - not to mention the constant demands to knuckle under petty authority.

There will always be kids who won't engage in school, but if they actually made school a useful and meaningful thing it would probably at least be tolerated by many more people.

Not to mention the ridicule the stupid kids dish out on the ones that do exert themselves.

[Arlos]

Parv: They could've been talking about the movement of the Earth around the sun, and how that plus the inclination of the Earth produces seasons. That was certainly well known back then. Given it's from a farming area, and how many other farm-related questions there are on there, knowing how Seasons work to people of that area would be considered pretty important, I'd think. So, since the portion of the question about motions of the Earth is combined with the question about the inclination of the Earth's rotational axis, I'd suspect that that's what they were talking about, rather than motions of various portions of the Earth, as with plate tectonics.

The biggest problem I have with privatizing everything about education is that if you do it, only the richest people will be able to afford to go to the best schools. It will further the currently rapidly-growing divide between Rich & Poor in this country at the expense of the middle class. Middle-class parents will face the horrible choice of beggaring themselves in order to afford a top-flight education, or send their kid somewhere affordable, and watch their kid get left behind by students in the top-flight schools.

Competition is *NOT* any guarantee of price lowering, especially in affluent areas. For example, there is a restaurant that opened in this area recently, right next to a really upscale shopping mall. They initially set their prices to be really reasonable, on the assumption that good value = more customers, which is important to a new restaurant. What they found is that the rich people leaving the mall would look at the prices, immediately assume that the food sucked simply because it was cheap, and as a result they had like no business. Once they found that out, the restaurant changed nothing else but upped their prices by 50-100% across the board, and immediately saw a HUGE upswing in the number of customers coming and eating there. The moral of the story is, people with sufficient money will often seek out the more expensive choice simply because it IS expensive, when given the choice between two selections. The upshot being, the best schools will never ever drop in price, simply because of the clientele they cater to. Secondary upshot is that any kid who's parents could NOT afford to send him to one of those top-flight schools would be playing catch-up for life.

Sorry, no, but that's not an acceptible outcome to me. Top-notch quality education needs to be available to everyone, regardless of race, sex or socio-economic background.

I honestly feel that if teachers are sent to short refresher/retraining/cross-training classes at least every other summer, and full-blown retraining to the tune of 24+ units of college classes every 6-7, when combined with yearly performance reviews + mandatory competancy testing every 6-7 years, that you can recruit a excellent cadre of teachers, assuming they are paid competitively enough compared to private industry so as to actually attract the bright & talented.

-Arlos

[Arlos]

BTW. I did go through public education growing up, and experienced both lows and highs in the system. Lowest of the lows was when we lived in Kansas, and they were just awful. California (and Phoenix, Arizona too, actually), they actually had programs for gifted kids to send them to higher level classes or special classes so they can learn more at their pace than that of the slower kids. I know by the time we moved away from Phoenix when I was halfway through 2nd grade, I'd already finished all of the assignments from the entire school year for the 6th grade reading class, and the school officials were trying to figure out what to do with me for the 2nd half of the year. (I started reading really really early, like before I was 2, and by 4 I was reading my parents' copy of Rudyard Kipling short stories, and was wandering around the house reciting Gunga Din from memory) Then we moved to Kansas, and I was stuck in a class still doing "See Spot Run", so, surprise surprise, my parents started getting calls about me being a discipline problem. heh.

I actually went to a good public high school, too. Sure, some of the teachers were crap (I knew of at least 2 who'd get drunk during school hours, or at the very least would show up to teach class hung over), and some classes were crap, but some of it was damn good, and there were a lot of really good teachers. Some of them were really OLD, but still good. My AP chem teacher started teaching at that high school in 1938, my AP bio teacher started in 1956, etc. My AP English teacher volunteered his own time and taught a class in Latin every day for an hour for anyone who wanted to attend in the hour before normal classes began. I must admit to avoiding some of the classes/teachers I knew were the worst, and took classes at the local community college instead and used those for HS credit, but every single teacher I had who taught an AP or AP-track class was decent at worst, and the best were outstanding.

Anyway, good public education DOES exist, you just have to find it, or be lucky enough to live in an area that does have it. Kansas, I'm sorry to say, was NOT one of those places. rofl.

-Arlos

[Captain Insano]

The biggest problem I have with privatizing everything about education is that if you do it, only the richest people will be able to afford to go to the best schools.

Ok mostly wrong a little right. Have you ever run a business ?

It's nice to sell the biggest badest and best shit around to those that have lots of money. I know.. I sell 5 thousand dollar LOADED Dell Dimension XPS desktops and laptops. Unfortunately I can only sell a few every week. Why you may ask? Because the people that can afford them make up OH about 1.5 percent of the market, which is a number that Dell came up with and passed onto us.

So yes the upper crust can afford the best stuff, but they make up, by far, the smallest portion of a very large market.

Schools would be treated the same damn way. Yes, there would be a few just amazing schools out there where undead zombie einstein would be teaching kids how to build nuclear bombs, but for the most part the vast majority of the "school business", much like the computer business would be focused on the 80 percent market...ie: the average kid.

I love selling an ultra highend computer with 800 dollars margin, but you know what, I would rather sell four low end machines at 300 bucks margin.


If you think there is overall more money catering to the rich in any business you are dead fucking wrong.


Now... Here's another thing. Anyone with money to spare has already pulled their kids out of the fucking mess that is public schools and have them at private schools where they might actually learn something. So your entire point is moot already.

The idea behind educational vouchers actually levels the playing field 100 percent. Bottom line the government says we have allocated 100 million dollars nationwide for every second grader in the country...

So no matter how rich, poor or black you are you get the same money spent on you as the rich blonde bitchy 2nd grade princess...Which means essentially you could send your shitty little brat to just as good of a school as the blonde bitch.


I would like to think I just pretty much owned this thread. Someone post the super slam pic and make me feel good.


Oh I almost forgot.. On average 65 of every 100 dollars allocated to education makes it to the schools. The rest goes in the Unions pockets.

What the hell would happen if 100 of it went to the schools? Liberals are fucking stupid.

[Yamori]

The biggest problem I have with privatizing everything about education is that if you do it, only the richest people will be able to afford to go to the best schools.

As the current situation goes, everyone goes to a suck-ass school, but rich people can move to an area with more tax dollars so their suck-ass school has a fancy 2 million dollar gymnasium and 900 state of the art $2000 computers to do powerpoint presentations on. The only real plus side is you're less likely to be stabbed at rich schools. I'd personally rather see some people get wonderful educations and the majority of people get decent educations - instead of everyone getting a mediocre one.

Public schools at the moment are just hideously mediocre - both compared to other countries, and more importantly - compared to what it could be. The basic infrastructure of what/how students are taught needs to be drastically changed - and that's something that bureaucracy will never be able to accomplish.

[Lyion]

Many well off people already send their kids to expensive and excellent private schools. Others send them to less expensive but wholly better private schools. By enabling vouchers you LEVEL the field, not change it. The rich kids are already there, so the analogy that voucers favor the rich is silly.

The problem still remains tenure, the teachers union, and the system that enables no competition so there is no measuring stick.

The solution isn't solely getting rid of some red tape, as the mediocre asstastic teachers without competition and a measuring stick remain.

Public school is a feel good, politically correct environment that at best is a mediocre learning experience, and at worst is a hellhole equivalent to prison for some young people. By giving choice and moving the school to a private charter you can overcome both those problems and make school both more intense and academic, and also less hellish for most kids.

This is working well in other countries. I hope we can start something like this soon here.