Well, considering Israel (legitimately) holds democratic elections, and is not entirely fucking crazy, and uses military strikes as opposed to the random slayings of innocent people via terrorism, I'd say they are much higher on the totem-pole of morality than their neighbors.
It's hard to judge Israel's militaristic behavior, considering they are basically surrounded on all sides by nations/cultures that would like nothing more than to see them all dead and destroyed --- cultures that (some of which) have blatantly shown they have no qualms supporting the murder of random innocent people to advance these goals. If Israel didn't show military force and a willingness to defend themselves, it could have very dangerous ramifications for them.
Imagine if Soviet Russia and Communist China had been where Mexico/Canada are in relation to the US. Now multiply it a bit. That's about the level of danger and hostility Israel deals with.
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Moderator: Dictators in Training
by Donnel » Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:42 pm
Which leads to some of the best military training in the world.
Imagine being in a situation where an enemy could fly over your entire country in 30-45 minutes. Then think of the readiness level you would have to permanently be at.
Imagine being in a situation where an enemy could fly over your entire country in 30-45 minutes. Then think of the readiness level you would have to permanently be at.
<a href="http://wow.allakhazam.com/profile.html?384300">Treston</a>
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by Lueyen » Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:45 pm
spazz wrote:* Israel goes out of its way to avoid taking out innocent civilians in these conflicts
bullshit
Israel has issued warnings to the Lebanese government to evacuate civilians around targets they intend to destroy. Israelie aircraft droped pamphlets warning civilians to stay away from Hezbollah targets. In acts like this they also warn the Hebollah, placing thier military personel in greater danger, decreasing the chance of success in thier attacks, all in an effort to avoid civilian casualties.
If warning your enemy that you intend to attack so that civilians can be evacuated isn't going out of your way to avoid civilian deaths I don't know what is.
Raymond S. Kraft wrote:The history of the world is the history of civilizational clashes, cultural clashes. All wars are about ideas, ideas about what society and civilization should be like, and the most determined always win.
Those who are willing to be the most ruthless always win. The pacifists always lose, because the anti-pacifists kill them.
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by Phlegm » Fri Jul 14, 2006 6:47 pm
It's basically a war now. From CNN:
BEIRUT, Lebanon (CNN) -- Hezbollah is prepared for "open war" against Israel and its fighters will take aim at the warships that "attacked our civilians," the militant group's leader, Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, said in a speech broadcast on Hezbollah television.
Minutes later, a warship off the Lebanese coast was struck by what the Israel Defense Forces said was an unmanned aircraft packed with explosives, damaging the ship's steering capability. Hezbollah-run television station Al Manar, however, initially reported that the boat was struck by two missiles.
The IDF originally reported there were no casualties. Hours later, the IDF said the ship was still on fire and was being towed back to Israel.
"You wanted an open war, you will have an open war," Nasrallah said. "You don't know who you are fighting today. You are fighting the children of Mohammed, ali Hassan and Hussein. You chose the war to fight against people who believe in their pride."
"We are ready for it -- war, war on every level," he said.
It was unclear whether the speech, which was broadcast with audio only, was taped or live.
Since the kidnapping on Wednesday of two Israeli soldiers by Hezbollah guerrillas, which Israel says sparked the ongoing offensive, Israel has blocked ports, closed the main international airport by destroying its runways and struck strategic points around Lebanon.
Lebanese officials are urging the United Nations and the United States to intervene to halt the Israeli attacks.
Since Wednesday, 63 Lebanese, including two soldiers, have been killed and 167 others have been wounded, according to Lebanon's internal security forces. The IDF reported that at least four Israeli civilians and eight Israeli soldiers have been killed, and more than 100 others have been wounded.
In his broadcast speech, Nasrallah also warned that if Israel took its offensive to Beirut that Hezbollah would exact retaliation on the northern Israeli port city of Haifa, about 30 miles from the Lebanese border.
"I will not tell you any more. If you hit the suburbs or Beirut, we will hit Haifa," he said. "We are going to an open war, to Haifa and beyond Haifa.
"We will not be the only ones who will lose their children and houses," he added.
Israel on Thursday struck numerous targets in Beirut, including the international airport, as rockets from Lebanon landed in Haifa. Hezbollah denied firing those rockets.
Israel has struck targets including Hezbollah offices, weapons-storage facilities, airports, bridges and roads, including the main highway between Beirut and the Syrian capital of Damascus.
Israel has set up a naval blockade, preventing cruise ships from docking in Beirut and cutting off the fuel supply to Lebanese power plants.
Maj. Gen. Udi Adam, head of Israel's Northern Command, said Wednesday there were "comprehensive plans" to battle Hezbollah throughout Lebanon, and not just in the Islamic militia's southern stronghold. Israeli Ambassador to the U.S. Daniel Ayalon said the current mission was designed to "de-fang the Hezbollah."
Nasrallah promised to "stand fast" in the face of Israeli attacks, which continued Friday.
In an unusual deal that the United States helped broker, a runway at the Beirut airport was repaired long enough to enable six planes -- one carrying former Lebanese Prime Minister Najib Nakati -- to take off. Israeli forces soon after bombed the runway again.
Israel later hit the Zahrani power plant south of Beirut, a parking lot near the Beirut airport, a tunnel to the airport, a fuel depot and two bridges, according to the Lebanese army. The IDF reported attacks on Hezbollah outposts in the south, a weapons-storage facility and three gas stations south of Sidon.
The Lebanese port cities of Tripoli, Sidon and Tyre reported their ports were blocked by Israeli warships.
Israel also attacked the neighborhood in southern Beirut where Nasrallah lives, and his apartment building was hit, according to Al Manar. Nasrallah's family was not hurt, the station reported. Also, explosions could be heard coming from the area housing Hezbollah headquarters and the studios of a Hezbollah radio station.
Lebanese defense officials reported that Israeli warplanes hit the headquarters for the Syrian-backed Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine in eastern Lebanon as well.
Israel also launched fresh attacks Friday on the Beirut-Damascus highway.
Friday's attacks came as the Israeli Cabinet approved a continued military operation aimed at recovering the kidnapped Ehud Goldvasser, 31, and Eldad Regev, 26.
In response to the Israeli attacks, Hezbollah fighters volleyed a new wave of rockets into at least six north Israeli towns -- Carmiel, Nahariya, Safed, Hatzor, Meron and Pqui'in. according to rescue services.
A woman and her 5-year-old grandson were killed by a rocket in Meron, Israeli authorities said. Also, a barrage of Katyushas hit Kiryat Shmona, according to the IDF, and Israeli television showed pictures of a rocket hitting a home in Nasariya. The occupants were wounded, according to the report.
Israelis were warned to stay away from vulnerable areas, but the government did not order them into bomb shelters.
Hezbollah, which enjoys substantial backing from Syria and Iran, is considered a terrorist organization by the United States and Israel. The group holds 23 of the 128 seats in Lebanon's parliament.
The Islamic militia has said it wants to negotiate with Israel on a prisoner exchange, a demand Israel has rebuffed, saying it would encourage more kidnappings. A third Israeli soldier is also being held captive in Gaza, where Israel has refused demands for a prisoner swap with Hamas and other groups.
Israel has exchanged prisoners with Hezbollah before, most recently in 2004 when Israel handed over more than 400 Palestinian, Lebanese and Arab prisoners for an Israeli businessman and the bodies of three Israeli soldiers.
BEIRUT, Lebanon (CNN) -- Hezbollah is prepared for "open war" against Israel and its fighters will take aim at the warships that "attacked our civilians," the militant group's leader, Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, said in a speech broadcast on Hezbollah television.
Minutes later, a warship off the Lebanese coast was struck by what the Israel Defense Forces said was an unmanned aircraft packed with explosives, damaging the ship's steering capability. Hezbollah-run television station Al Manar, however, initially reported that the boat was struck by two missiles.
The IDF originally reported there were no casualties. Hours later, the IDF said the ship was still on fire and was being towed back to Israel.
"You wanted an open war, you will have an open war," Nasrallah said. "You don't know who you are fighting today. You are fighting the children of Mohammed, ali Hassan and Hussein. You chose the war to fight against people who believe in their pride."
"We are ready for it -- war, war on every level," he said.
It was unclear whether the speech, which was broadcast with audio only, was taped or live.
Since the kidnapping on Wednesday of two Israeli soldiers by Hezbollah guerrillas, which Israel says sparked the ongoing offensive, Israel has blocked ports, closed the main international airport by destroying its runways and struck strategic points around Lebanon.
Lebanese officials are urging the United Nations and the United States to intervene to halt the Israeli attacks.
Since Wednesday, 63 Lebanese, including two soldiers, have been killed and 167 others have been wounded, according to Lebanon's internal security forces. The IDF reported that at least four Israeli civilians and eight Israeli soldiers have been killed, and more than 100 others have been wounded.
In his broadcast speech, Nasrallah also warned that if Israel took its offensive to Beirut that Hezbollah would exact retaliation on the northern Israeli port city of Haifa, about 30 miles from the Lebanese border.
"I will not tell you any more. If you hit the suburbs or Beirut, we will hit Haifa," he said. "We are going to an open war, to Haifa and beyond Haifa.
"We will not be the only ones who will lose their children and houses," he added.
Israel on Thursday struck numerous targets in Beirut, including the international airport, as rockets from Lebanon landed in Haifa. Hezbollah denied firing those rockets.
Israel has struck targets including Hezbollah offices, weapons-storage facilities, airports, bridges and roads, including the main highway between Beirut and the Syrian capital of Damascus.
Israel has set up a naval blockade, preventing cruise ships from docking in Beirut and cutting off the fuel supply to Lebanese power plants.
Maj. Gen. Udi Adam, head of Israel's Northern Command, said Wednesday there were "comprehensive plans" to battle Hezbollah throughout Lebanon, and not just in the Islamic militia's southern stronghold. Israeli Ambassador to the U.S. Daniel Ayalon said the current mission was designed to "de-fang the Hezbollah."
Nasrallah promised to "stand fast" in the face of Israeli attacks, which continued Friday.
In an unusual deal that the United States helped broker, a runway at the Beirut airport was repaired long enough to enable six planes -- one carrying former Lebanese Prime Minister Najib Nakati -- to take off. Israeli forces soon after bombed the runway again.
Israel later hit the Zahrani power plant south of Beirut, a parking lot near the Beirut airport, a tunnel to the airport, a fuel depot and two bridges, according to the Lebanese army. The IDF reported attacks on Hezbollah outposts in the south, a weapons-storage facility and three gas stations south of Sidon.
The Lebanese port cities of Tripoli, Sidon and Tyre reported their ports were blocked by Israeli warships.
Israel also attacked the neighborhood in southern Beirut where Nasrallah lives, and his apartment building was hit, according to Al Manar. Nasrallah's family was not hurt, the station reported. Also, explosions could be heard coming from the area housing Hezbollah headquarters and the studios of a Hezbollah radio station.
Lebanese defense officials reported that Israeli warplanes hit the headquarters for the Syrian-backed Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine in eastern Lebanon as well.
Israel also launched fresh attacks Friday on the Beirut-Damascus highway.
Friday's attacks came as the Israeli Cabinet approved a continued military operation aimed at recovering the kidnapped Ehud Goldvasser, 31, and Eldad Regev, 26.
In response to the Israeli attacks, Hezbollah fighters volleyed a new wave of rockets into at least six north Israeli towns -- Carmiel, Nahariya, Safed, Hatzor, Meron and Pqui'in. according to rescue services.
A woman and her 5-year-old grandson were killed by a rocket in Meron, Israeli authorities said. Also, a barrage of Katyushas hit Kiryat Shmona, according to the IDF, and Israeli television showed pictures of a rocket hitting a home in Nasariya. The occupants were wounded, according to the report.
Israelis were warned to stay away from vulnerable areas, but the government did not order them into bomb shelters.
Hezbollah, which enjoys substantial backing from Syria and Iran, is considered a terrorist organization by the United States and Israel. The group holds 23 of the 128 seats in Lebanon's parliament.
The Islamic militia has said it wants to negotiate with Israel on a prisoner exchange, a demand Israel has rebuffed, saying it would encourage more kidnappings. A third Israeli soldier is also being held captive in Gaza, where Israel has refused demands for a prisoner swap with Hamas and other groups.
Israel has exchanged prisoners with Hezbollah before, most recently in 2004 when Israel handed over more than 400 Palestinian, Lebanese and Arab prisoners for an Israeli businessman and the bodies of three Israeli soldiers.
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by Phlegm » Fri Jul 14, 2006 6:49 pm
Here's a timeline of all the conflict Lebanon, Israel. From CNN:
(CNN) -- The 1967 Arab-Israeli War and Jordan's 1970 crackdown on the Palestine Liberation Organization, following a coup attempt against King Hussein, drove large numbers of Palestinian refugees into Lebanon -- Yasser Arafat and the PLO among them.
Below is a timeline of significant events in the relationship among Israel, Lebanon and the Palestinians since then:
December 1968: Israeli commandos attack Beirut International Airport on December 28, 1968, damaging or destroying more than a dozen airplanes in retaliation for an attack on an Israeli civilian airplane at the airport in Athens, Greece. Two Palestinians were charged in the Athens attack that left an Israeli passenger dead.
November 1969: Lebanese army commander in chief Emile Bustani and Arafat sign an agreement in Cairo that recognizes the "Palestinian revolution" and allows Palestinians in Lebanon "to join in the armed struggle without undermining Lebanon's sovereignty and welfare." This agreement will stay in effect for nearly 20 years, until Lebanon rescinds it in May 1987.
1970-1971: Faced with fighting in Jordan that left thousands dead, the PLO moves its base to Lebanon, where it carries out raids on Israel. A Palestinian terrorist group linked to the PLO is formed. Its name is "Black September" -- a reference to the Jordanian crackdown on Palestinians in September 1970.
1972: Black September attacks the Israeli Olympic team during the games in Munich, Germany. After a struggle that left a coach and an athlete dead, the terrorists take nine Israeli athletes hostage, demanding the release of Palestinian prisoners in return for the hostages' release. Israel refuses, and a shootout between the attackers and West German authorities leaves all nine hostages, four terrorists and a policeman dead.
April 1973: Israeli elite commandos -- dressed as women and led by future Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak -- kill three PLO leaders in Beirut.
1975: Civil war breaks out in Lebanon, pitting Palestinians and pro-Palestinian Lebanese militias against Lebanon's Christian militias. The war would last nearly 15 years, officially ending in 1990.
1976: Syria sends military peacekeepers during the early months of the civil war to help end it. The troops would remain there nearly 30 years, until April 2005.
March 1978: A PLO attack on a bus in northern Israel prompts Israeli military forces to move into Lebanon to push the PLO back from the border. Israel withdraws after the U.N. Security Council passes a resolution for the immediate withdrawal of Israeli forces. Under the leadership of Lebanese army Maj. Saad Haddad, an Israeli ally, a 12-mile wide "security zone" is established to protect Israeli territory from cross-border attacks.
September 1978: The Camp David Accords, brokered by U.S. President Jimmy Carter, lead to a peace treaty between Israel and Egypt. The accords lay the groundwork for a similar treaty between Israel and Lebanon, as well as its other Arab neighbors.
July 17, 1981: Israeli forces bomb PLO headquarters in West Beirut, killing more than 300 civilians. The attack leads to a U.S.-brokered cease-fire between Israel, the PLO and Syria, whose troops were in Lebanon.
1982: The cease-fire lasts until June 6, 1982, when Israel invades Lebanon with about 60,000 troops in a push to destroy the PLO, after an assassination attempt on Israel's ambassador to Britain. Arafat and the PLO flee Lebanon in August and settle in Tunis, Tunisia, where they remain until moving to Gaza in 1994.
The Israel-backed Lebanese president-elect, Bashir Gemayel, is assassinated September 14, shortly before his inauguration. Israeli troops enter West Beirut a day later, and the following day, nearly 800 Palestinian refugees are massacred at the hands of Lebanese Christian militias in the Sabra and Shatila camps. Israel is accused of doing nothing to prevent or stop the massacre.
Hezbollah, a fundamentalist Shiite Muslim militant group, emerges as a force in Beirut, the Bekaa Valley and southern Lebanon. Sponsored by Iran, modeled after Iran's Revolutionary Guards and supported by Syria, Hezbollah aims to establish a Shiite Islamic state in Lebanon and force Western interests like Israel and the United States out of the region.
April 18, 1983: A suicide attack by Hezbollah on the U.S. Embassy in West Beirut kills 63 people, a harbinger of future attacks against U.S. and Western interests.
May 17, 1983: Lebanon and Israel sign a U.S.-brokered peace agreement, spelling out terms of Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon, conditional on the withdrawal of Syrian forces. Syria opposes the agreement.
October 23, 1983: A Hezbollah suicide bomber blows up the headquarters of U.S. Marine and French forces in Beirut, killing 298 people -- 241 of them U.S. Marines and other military personnel. U.S. troops are withdrawn from Lebanon a few months later.
January 18, 1984: American University of Beirut President Malcolm Kerr is assassinated.
March 1984: With pressure mounting from Syria, Lebanon cancels the May 17, 1983, peace agreement.
September 20, 1984: The U.S. Embassy annex in East Beirut is bombed, and 23 people are killed.
June 1985: Israel withdraws from most of Lebanon but keeps control of the 12-mile-wide security zone in the south. Israel remains there until May 2000.
1990: Lebanon's 15-year civil war officially ends.
July 1993: Israel attacks southern Lebanon in a weeklong operation aimed at ending Hezbollah attacks on Israeli towns.
April 1996: Israel and Hezbollah militants engage in a 16-day battle, in which at least 137 people, mostly Lebanese civilians, are killed.
May 2000: Israeli troops withdraw from southern Lebanon, and the United Nations establishes the "Blue Line" as a border between the two countries.
September 2003: Israeli warplanes hit southern Lebanon in response to Hezbollah's firing antiaircraft missiles at Israeli planes in the area.
October 2003: Israel and Lebanon exchange gunfire in the disputed area known as Shebaa Farms.
February 14, 2005: Former Lebanese Prime Minister Rafik Hariri is assassinated. Pressure builds on Syria to withdraw its remaining troops from Lebanon, which it does in April.
July 2006: Hezbollah militants cross into Israel, kill three Israeli soldiers and kidnap two others in a bid to negotiate a prisoner exchange, a demand rebuffed by Israel. Another five Israeli soldiers are killed after the ambush. Israel responds with a naval blockade and by bombing hundreds of targets in Lebanon, including Beirut's airport and Hezbollah's headquarters in southern Beirut. Hezbollah responds with rocket attacks targeting northern Israeli cities. Fighting leaves dozens of Lebanese civilians dead and coincides with a two-week-old Israeli military campaign in Gaza in response to the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier by Palestinian militants.
(CNN) -- The 1967 Arab-Israeli War and Jordan's 1970 crackdown on the Palestine Liberation Organization, following a coup attempt against King Hussein, drove large numbers of Palestinian refugees into Lebanon -- Yasser Arafat and the PLO among them.
Below is a timeline of significant events in the relationship among Israel, Lebanon and the Palestinians since then:
December 1968: Israeli commandos attack Beirut International Airport on December 28, 1968, damaging or destroying more than a dozen airplanes in retaliation for an attack on an Israeli civilian airplane at the airport in Athens, Greece. Two Palestinians were charged in the Athens attack that left an Israeli passenger dead.
November 1969: Lebanese army commander in chief Emile Bustani and Arafat sign an agreement in Cairo that recognizes the "Palestinian revolution" and allows Palestinians in Lebanon "to join in the armed struggle without undermining Lebanon's sovereignty and welfare." This agreement will stay in effect for nearly 20 years, until Lebanon rescinds it in May 1987.
1970-1971: Faced with fighting in Jordan that left thousands dead, the PLO moves its base to Lebanon, where it carries out raids on Israel. A Palestinian terrorist group linked to the PLO is formed. Its name is "Black September" -- a reference to the Jordanian crackdown on Palestinians in September 1970.
1972: Black September attacks the Israeli Olympic team during the games in Munich, Germany. After a struggle that left a coach and an athlete dead, the terrorists take nine Israeli athletes hostage, demanding the release of Palestinian prisoners in return for the hostages' release. Israel refuses, and a shootout between the attackers and West German authorities leaves all nine hostages, four terrorists and a policeman dead.
April 1973: Israeli elite commandos -- dressed as women and led by future Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak -- kill three PLO leaders in Beirut.
1975: Civil war breaks out in Lebanon, pitting Palestinians and pro-Palestinian Lebanese militias against Lebanon's Christian militias. The war would last nearly 15 years, officially ending in 1990.
1976: Syria sends military peacekeepers during the early months of the civil war to help end it. The troops would remain there nearly 30 years, until April 2005.
March 1978: A PLO attack on a bus in northern Israel prompts Israeli military forces to move into Lebanon to push the PLO back from the border. Israel withdraws after the U.N. Security Council passes a resolution for the immediate withdrawal of Israeli forces. Under the leadership of Lebanese army Maj. Saad Haddad, an Israeli ally, a 12-mile wide "security zone" is established to protect Israeli territory from cross-border attacks.
September 1978: The Camp David Accords, brokered by U.S. President Jimmy Carter, lead to a peace treaty between Israel and Egypt. The accords lay the groundwork for a similar treaty between Israel and Lebanon, as well as its other Arab neighbors.
July 17, 1981: Israeli forces bomb PLO headquarters in West Beirut, killing more than 300 civilians. The attack leads to a U.S.-brokered cease-fire between Israel, the PLO and Syria, whose troops were in Lebanon.
1982: The cease-fire lasts until June 6, 1982, when Israel invades Lebanon with about 60,000 troops in a push to destroy the PLO, after an assassination attempt on Israel's ambassador to Britain. Arafat and the PLO flee Lebanon in August and settle in Tunis, Tunisia, where they remain until moving to Gaza in 1994.
The Israel-backed Lebanese president-elect, Bashir Gemayel, is assassinated September 14, shortly before his inauguration. Israeli troops enter West Beirut a day later, and the following day, nearly 800 Palestinian refugees are massacred at the hands of Lebanese Christian militias in the Sabra and Shatila camps. Israel is accused of doing nothing to prevent or stop the massacre.
Hezbollah, a fundamentalist Shiite Muslim militant group, emerges as a force in Beirut, the Bekaa Valley and southern Lebanon. Sponsored by Iran, modeled after Iran's Revolutionary Guards and supported by Syria, Hezbollah aims to establish a Shiite Islamic state in Lebanon and force Western interests like Israel and the United States out of the region.
April 18, 1983: A suicide attack by Hezbollah on the U.S. Embassy in West Beirut kills 63 people, a harbinger of future attacks against U.S. and Western interests.
May 17, 1983: Lebanon and Israel sign a U.S.-brokered peace agreement, spelling out terms of Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon, conditional on the withdrawal of Syrian forces. Syria opposes the agreement.
October 23, 1983: A Hezbollah suicide bomber blows up the headquarters of U.S. Marine and French forces in Beirut, killing 298 people -- 241 of them U.S. Marines and other military personnel. U.S. troops are withdrawn from Lebanon a few months later.
January 18, 1984: American University of Beirut President Malcolm Kerr is assassinated.
March 1984: With pressure mounting from Syria, Lebanon cancels the May 17, 1983, peace agreement.
September 20, 1984: The U.S. Embassy annex in East Beirut is bombed, and 23 people are killed.
June 1985: Israel withdraws from most of Lebanon but keeps control of the 12-mile-wide security zone in the south. Israel remains there until May 2000.
1990: Lebanon's 15-year civil war officially ends.
July 1993: Israel attacks southern Lebanon in a weeklong operation aimed at ending Hezbollah attacks on Israeli towns.
April 1996: Israel and Hezbollah militants engage in a 16-day battle, in which at least 137 people, mostly Lebanese civilians, are killed.
May 2000: Israeli troops withdraw from southern Lebanon, and the United Nations establishes the "Blue Line" as a border between the two countries.
September 2003: Israeli warplanes hit southern Lebanon in response to Hezbollah's firing antiaircraft missiles at Israeli planes in the area.
October 2003: Israel and Lebanon exchange gunfire in the disputed area known as Shebaa Farms.
February 14, 2005: Former Lebanese Prime Minister Rafik Hariri is assassinated. Pressure builds on Syria to withdraw its remaining troops from Lebanon, which it does in April.
July 2006: Hezbollah militants cross into Israel, kill three Israeli soldiers and kidnap two others in a bid to negotiate a prisoner exchange, a demand rebuffed by Israel. Another five Israeli soldiers are killed after the ambush. Israel responds with a naval blockade and by bombing hundreds of targets in Lebanon, including Beirut's airport and Hezbollah's headquarters in southern Beirut. Hezbollah responds with rocket attacks targeting northern Israeli cities. Fighting leaves dozens of Lebanese civilians dead and coincides with a two-week-old Israeli military campaign in Gaza in response to the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier by Palestinian militants.
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by Lionking » Fri Jul 14, 2006 7:33 pm
"You wanted an open war, you will have an open war," Nasrallah said. "You don't know who you are fighting today. You are fighting the children of Mohammed, ali Hassan and Hussein. You chose the war to fight against people who believe in their pride."
This makes me LOL. They are about to become Israel's bitch.
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by Lionking » Fri Jul 14, 2006 7:34 pm
spazz wrote:* Israel goes out of its way to avoid taking out innocent civilians in these conflicts
bullshit
I expected more from you... er, no I didn't.
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by Arlos » Fri Jul 14, 2006 7:52 pm
If Vietnam taught the world anything, it should've taught us that a conventional miltiary campaign against a force that is functionally a disgruntled and loosely organized civilian organization is effectively doomed to failure. Short of killing EVERYONE, how do you kill the militants and not civilians, assuming they're not actively shooting at you at the time? Remember, killing civilians just worsens your problem, as it just creates MORE militants.
Unless the civilian population wants to help the invading foreign power, there is no way whatsoever that a standard military is going to be able to eliminate a guerella movement. Period. The US couldn't do it in Vietnam, we haven't been able to do it in Iraq, and Israel hasn't been able to do it in 40+ years of fighting.
Again, I ask you, look at the results of the recent incursion: We've gone from a widely supported referendum about to take place that would've effectively forced Hamas to recognize Israel's right to exist, which is the first step in establishing a real peace. Now? More rockets are being fired than ever, more civilians have died, which gives rise to the next generation of terrorists and militants, and they not only haven't recovered the guy they were initially going after, two MORE hostages have been taken.
Oh yeah, that's been a REALLY successful operation. Not.
I repeat my assertion as to the root cause of this outbreak. Any time real peace seems to be almost within reach, militants on one side or the other pull SOMETHING, knowing it'll sabotage things for years. Egypt and Israel sign an accord which is used as a template for other accords in the area between Israel and the arabs. What happens? Sadat is assassinated by arab extremists. Rabin negotiates a peace with the PLO, there's now real potential for peace between Israel and Palestine. What happens? Rabin's assassinated by an ISRAELI extremist.
Someone with enough knowledge of history and psychology planned the kidnapping knowing roughly what would happen, because it served their personal interest for the war to be ongoing.
-Arlos
Unless the civilian population wants to help the invading foreign power, there is no way whatsoever that a standard military is going to be able to eliminate a guerella movement. Period. The US couldn't do it in Vietnam, we haven't been able to do it in Iraq, and Israel hasn't been able to do it in 40+ years of fighting.
Again, I ask you, look at the results of the recent incursion: We've gone from a widely supported referendum about to take place that would've effectively forced Hamas to recognize Israel's right to exist, which is the first step in establishing a real peace. Now? More rockets are being fired than ever, more civilians have died, which gives rise to the next generation of terrorists and militants, and they not only haven't recovered the guy they were initially going after, two MORE hostages have been taken.
Oh yeah, that's been a REALLY successful operation. Not.
I repeat my assertion as to the root cause of this outbreak. Any time real peace seems to be almost within reach, militants on one side or the other pull SOMETHING, knowing it'll sabotage things for years. Egypt and Israel sign an accord which is used as a template for other accords in the area between Israel and the arabs. What happens? Sadat is assassinated by arab extremists. Rabin negotiates a peace with the PLO, there's now real potential for peace between Israel and Palestine. What happens? Rabin's assassinated by an ISRAELI extremist.
Someone with enough knowledge of history and psychology planned the kidnapping knowing roughly what would happen, because it served their personal interest for the war to be ongoing.
-Arlos
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by Harrison » Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:14 pm
Lueyen wrote:spazz wrote:* Israel goes out of its way to avoid taking out innocent civilians in these conflicts
bullshit
Israel has issued warnings to the Lebanese government to evacuate civilians around targets they intend to destroy. Israelie aircraft droped pamphlets warning civilians to stay away from Hezbollah targets. In acts like this they also warn the Hebollah, placing thier military personel in greater danger, decreasing the chance of success in thier attacks, all in an effort to avoid civilian casualties.
If warning your enemy that you intend to attack so that civilians can be evacuated isn't going out of your way to avoid civilian deaths I don't know what is.
You're arguing with a genuine retard, just stop now before his head implodes.
How do you like this spoiler, motherfucker? -Lyion
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by Spazz » Sat Jul 15, 2006 6:51 am
I work in shipping and receiving playing with highlows and loading trucks all day. I love my job.
WHITE TRASH METAL SLUMMER
Why Immortal technique?
Perhaps its because I am afraid and he gives me courage.
Why Immortal technique?
Perhaps its because I am afraid and he gives me courage.
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by Lyion » Sat Jul 15, 2006 7:29 am
I don't see Spazz personally attacking anyone. I see him offering opinion. Stop the personal attacks.
Israel has done many dire and nasty deeds. You can argue it's done to survive, but they are vicous as anyone with familiarity with the region can argue.
Israel has done many dire and nasty deeds. You can argue it's done to survive, but they are vicous as anyone with familiarity with the region can argue.
What saves a man is to take a step. Then another step.
– C. S. Lewis
– C. S. Lewis
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by Captain Insano » Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:42 am
arlos wrote:. Short of killing EVERYONE
I personally condone that strategy
Tossica: No, you're gay because you suck on cocks.
Darcler:
Get rid of the pictures of the goofy looking white guy. That opens two right there.
Mazzletoffarado: That's me fucktard
Darcler:
Get rid of the pictures of the goofy looking white guy. That opens two right there.
Mazzletoffarado: That's me fucktard
Vivalicious wrote:Lots of females don't want you to put your penis in their mouths. Some prefer it in their ass.
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Captain Insano - Nappy Headed Ho
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by Minrott » Sun Jul 16, 2006 7:05 am
While I agree with your premise in the context of Vietnam and Iraq and Afghanistan Arlos, I fail to see how it has anything in the slightest to do with Israel. Israel will never, in anyway shape or form have the ability to appease the general muslim population. Their very existence in that piece of land prevents them from winning over the hearts and minds of the general muslim population.
The only similarities are that one force is well equipped and trained, and the opposing force is civilian one day and militant the next.
Israel has only two choices the way I see it, 1: Fight small skirmishes forever or 2: Make life so terrible for anyone even near a Hezbollah or PLO member that eventually the civilians turn on them for becoming the reason their lives are so shitty. Which is what I believe their intention with Lebanon is.
The only similarities are that one force is well equipped and trained, and the opposing force is civilian one day and militant the next.
Israel has only two choices the way I see it, 1: Fight small skirmishes forever or 2: Make life so terrible for anyone even near a Hezbollah or PLO member that eventually the civilians turn on them for becoming the reason their lives are so shitty. Which is what I believe their intention with Lebanon is.
Molon Labe
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Minrott - NT Deity
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by Lueyen » Sun Jul 16, 2006 9:46 am
arlos wrote:If Vietnam taught the world anything, it should've taught us that a conventional miltiary campaign against a force that is functionally a disgruntled and loosely organized civilian organization is effectively doomed to failure. Short of killing EVERYONE, how do you kill the militants and not civilians, assuming they're not actively shooting at you at the time? Remember, killing civilians just worsens your problem, as it just creates MORE militants.
Unless the civilian population wants to help the invading foreign power, there is no way whatsoever that a standard military is going to be able to eliminate a guerella movement. Period. The US couldn't do it in Vietnam, we haven't been able to do it in Iraq, and Israel hasn't been able to do it in 40+ years of fighting.
Again, I ask you, look at the results of the recent incursion: We've gone from a widely supported referendum about to take place that would've effectively forced Hamas to recognize Israel's right to exist, which is the first step in establishing a real peace. Now? More rockets are being fired than ever, more civilians have died, which gives rise to the next generation of terrorists and militants, and they not only haven't recovered the guy they were initially going after, two MORE hostages have been taken.
-Arlos
Although I agree to an extent, the enemy we were fighting in Vietnam was only part of the reason for our failure. Vietnam was really the first televised war, the first time war was brought right into American homes, and the worst parts shown. The graphic nature of this was a shock to the American public. There was also a draft, many at least partially unwilling soldiers. This strongly contributed to a huge lack of support of the war, which was just as much a contributing factor if not more so. Thankfully if there is one lesson we learned well it was that our most grievous mistake was not in supporting or not supporting the war, but in tolerating the degradation or blaming of our troops. This did have and will always have a huge impact on morale, and the success or lack there of for any military action.
A similarity between Vietnam and Iraq that you didn't mention, and a lesson we haven't learned (or a situation we haven't learned to deal with well) is that of fighting with our hands tied. The insurgency in Iraq is being supported by surrounding countries, and although not a huge problem by this point I believe it will become an issue in the future. If those we are fighting have a safe haven in surrounding countries, and support even if unofficial, and we stay our hand in pursuing and eliminating that issue, we will face a similar situation that we had in Vietnam not being able to pursue the VC into Cambodia.
As far as a comparison with Israel. There is no similar shock value of what military conflict is really like to the Israeli civilians. As Lyion pointed out the Israelis are vicious, and this is a direct result of generations of living under constant threat and attack. I think we will find that there will be no shortage of resolve when it comes to the citizens of Israel. For them and the enemy they face, there is no realistic option to "pull out and go home".
I also agree that radicals on both sides will make any effort toward peaceful resolution difficult, and frankly as scary as it may sound maybe impossible. It would be wonderful if a peaceful solution was found, but it may very well only be possible via an event of virtually a miraculous nature. I hate to say it, but very likely what it may come down to is that the situation has reached a point of reckoning, and it will only be solved by blood and strife.
As scary as it is that the surrounding events may engulf the entire region, and could quite easily lead to a third world war (and dare I say to those who believe in certain doctrine, an end of times), if that is to pass, if the option is to let Israel to be consumed and or destroyed, or to back them I don't see the former as a reasonable viable option. Concession to fanatics who want to see you destroyed will only stave off destruction, not prevent it. The Hezbollah have a very similar view of both the U.S. and Israel in that they would like nothing more then to see the destruction of both. One of those is currently possibly in their reach, the other is not, however might someday in the future at the very least appear feasible. If strife and our involvement in such are inevitable, I for one don't want to stave it off by sacrificing our allies.
Raymond S. Kraft wrote:The history of the world is the history of civilizational clashes, cultural clashes. All wars are about ideas, ideas about what society and civilization should be like, and the most determined always win.
Those who are willing to be the most ruthless always win. The pacifists always lose, because the anti-pacifists kill them.
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Lueyen - Dictator in Training
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by Eziekial » Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:45 am
That's a well thought out post but unfortunately, based on common misconceptions. The US military did not fail in Vietnam, it was by all accounts, wildly successful.
Isreal needs to fight a war they should have fought a long time ago and be done with it. If they lose, they lose. If they win, great they can start paying us back for all the aid we've sent them over the last 50 years.
Isreal needs to fight a war they should have fought a long time ago and be done with it. If they lose, they lose. If they win, great they can start paying us back for all the aid we've sent them over the last 50 years.
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Eziekial - NT Traveller
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by Jay » Sun Jul 16, 2006 1:38 pm
Eziekial wrote:That's a well thought out post but unfortunately, based on common misconceptions. The US military did not fail in Vietnam, it was by all accounts, wildly successful.
Isreal needs to fight a war they should have fought a long time ago and be done with it. If they lose, they lose. If they win, great they can start paying us back for all the aid we've sent them over the last 50 years.
How is spending 35 billion dollars to lose soldiers in a war and leaving the country still in a state of communism wildly successful?
- Jay
by Yamori » Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:23 pm
Jay wrote:Eziekial wrote:That's a well thought out post but unfortunately, based on common misconceptions. The US military did not fail in Vietnam, it was by all accounts, wildly successful.
Isreal needs to fight a war they should have fought a long time ago and be done with it. If they lose, they lose. If they win, great they can start paying us back for all the aid we've sent them over the last 50 years.
How is spending 35 billion dollars to lose soldiers in a war and leaving the country still in a state of communism wildly successful?
No shit, lol.
-Yamori
AKA ~~Baron Boshie of the Nameless~~
AKA ~~Baron Boshie of the Nameless~~
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Yamori - NT Traveller
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by DESX » Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:59 pm
Minrott wrote:Let's see. 58,000 of our own dead, over 450,000 NVA and VC and civilians dead.
Although I agree with Jay.
Ahh yes thats a success considering that most of the time we were just trying to slaughter as many North vvetnamese soldiers and Vietcong as we could. If you look at the old battle strategies....um the strategy was to go and kill as many enemy troops as possible there was never really an objective of capturing so and so for this purpose it was purely for erradication. That is the reason why we just kept capturing places and then the enemy would capture it back we never really moved anywhere except we did slaughter massive amounts of people.
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DESX - NT Veteran
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