Warrantless Wiretapping ruled Unconstitutional

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Warrantless Wiretapping ruled Unconstitutional

Postby Arlos » Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:15 pm

A federal judge on Thursday ruled that the U.S. government's domestic eavesdropping program is unconstitutional and ordered it ended immediately.

The Justice Department said it would appeal the ruling, saying the program was "a critical tool that ensures we have in place an early warning system to detect and prevent a terrorist attack."

In a 44-page memorandum and order, U.S. District Judge Anna Diggs Taylor, -- who is based in Detroit, Michigan -- struck down the National Security Agency's program, which she said violates the rights to free speech and privacy.

The defendants "are permanently enjoined from directly or indirectly utilizing the Terrorist Surveillance Program (TSP) in any way, including, but not limited to, conducting warrantless wiretaps of telephone and Internet communications, in contravention of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act and Title III," she wrote.

She further declared that the program "violates the separation of powers doctrine, the Administrative Procedures Act, the First and Fourth amendments to the United States Constitution, the FISA and Title III."

She went on to say that "the president of the United States ... has undisputedly violated the Fourth in failing to procure judicial orders."

In its statement announcing the appeal, the Justice Department rejected the judge's reasoning.

"In the ongoing conflict with al Qaeda and its allies, the president has the primary duty under the Constitution to protect the American people," the Justice Department said. "The Constitution gives the president the full authority necessary to carry out that solemn duty, and we believe the program is lawful and protects civil liberties."

The lawsuit, filed January 17 by civil rights organizations, lawyers, journalists and educators, "challenges the constitutionality of a secret government program to intercept vast quantities of the international telephone and Internet communications of innocent Americans without court approval."

The complaint was filed in U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Michigan. Plaintiffs included branches of the American Civil Liberties Union, the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, the Washington and Detroit branches of the Council on American-Islamic Relations and Greenpeace.

The judge in the case, Taylor, 75, has been on the Eastern District of Michigan bench since 1979. Appointed by President Carter, she became one of the first African-American women to sit on a federal court.
Program under scrutiny

Electronic surveillance programs run by the NSA have been under fire since December, when The New York Times disclosed that the government was listening in -- without first obtaining a court order -- on international phone calls involving people suspected of having ties to terrorists.

Some legal scholars said the program is an illegal and unwarranted intrusion on Americans' privacy, but the Bush administration defended it as a necessary tool in the battle against al Qaeda.

Opinion polls suggest the U.S. public has been divided on the NSA program. A CNN poll conducted by Opinion Research Corp. on May 16-17 found that 50 percent of the respondents believe the program was "wrong," while 44 percent believe it was "right." The poll's margin of error was plus or minus 4.5 percent.

The plaintiffs alleged their communications with parties outside the country were being monitored by the NSA's wiretapping program. The complaint said the NSA's surveillance disrupts "the ability of the plaintiffs to talk with sources, locate witnesses, conduct scholarship and engage in advocacy."

On May 26, instead of responding to arguments attacking the legality of the NSA's eavesdropping program, the government filed for dismissal of the case, citing the "U.S. military and state secrets privilege" and arguing the government would not be able to defend the domestic spying program without disclosing classified information.

ACLU official calls ruling 'landmark victory'

"Today's ruling is a landmark victory against the abuse of power that has become the hallmark of the Bush administration," said Anthony D. Romero, the ACLU's executive director.

"Government spying on innocent Americans without any kind of warrant and without congressional approval runs counter to the very foundations of our democracy. We hope that Congress follows the lead of the court and demands that the president adhere to the rule of law."

Sen. Russ Feingold, D-Wisconsin, called the ruling "a strong rebuke of this administration's illegal wiretapping program.

"The president must return to the Constitution and follow the statutes passed by Congress," he said in a statement. "We all want our government to monitor suspected terrorists, but there is no reason for it to break the law to do so."

Also in a statement, Sen. Patrick Leahy, D-Vermont, said, "This has become another unfortunate example of how White House misdirection, arrogance and mismanagement have needlessly complicated our goal of protecting the American people.

"By following the Constitution and our laws, we can protect both our security and our American values," said Leahy, the ranking Democrat on the Senate Judiciary Committee.

Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tennessee, said he backs the government's appeal of the ruling.

"Terrorists are the real threat to our constitutional and democratic freedoms, not the law enforcement and intelligence tools used to keep America safe," Frist said in a statement.

"We need to strengthen, not weaken, our ability to foil terrorist plots before they can do us harm. I encourage swift appeal by the government and quick reversal of this unfortunate decision."

In July, Sen. Arlen Specter, chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, said the White House agreed to submit the program to the FISA court for review.

Specter, R-Pennsylvania, and the White House said they would support legislation that would consolidate about 30 lawsuits filed against the government, transferring them to the FISA court so there would be a single forum in which to litigate them.

But the legislation has not passed through the Judiciary Committee, let alone the Senate, and it may never be approved, as Democrats have raised objections to a number of its key components.

Specter was in India and not immediately available for comment on the ruling.


Hooray for that Judge. I've been saying all along that warrantless wiretapping is and SHOULD BE illegal, period. Looks like the judiciary branch agrees with me.

I have no problem with wiretapping WITH a warrant, and even have no problem with the FISA system, where the government has 48 hours post-wiretapping to pbtain said warrant, should there be a case with time-critical interests. But there's *NO* reason whatsoever why the government could not submit a case to FISA within that 48 hour period, if they have a legitimate cause to be wiretapping that individual.

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Postby Spazz » Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:26 pm

This judge is clearly on the side of the TERRORISTS. Doesnt she know we gotta role over and let the government do whatever it wants or we wont ever ever be safe.
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Postby Lyion » Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:30 pm

This will end up at the Supreme Court.

I have different views, and really we've done this discussion before.
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Postby Gidan » Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:31 pm

But we just love to have them same discussions over and over and over.
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Postby Spazz » Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:52 pm

Everytime we shred the constitution a little bit more the government gets scarier freedom gets lost and it becomes more obvious that the " terrorists" have allready won the war.
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Postby Diekan » Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:53 pm

He didn't post his opinion - he just posted an article telling us the current situation with it... it being ruled unconstitutional (which it IS).

The terrorists have essentially won this little war with us. We've given up certain liberties and have, in many cases, restructured our lives because their intentions, threats and attempts.

The government is going to continue to ride this horse to death and stip us of as many liberties and freedoms they can. Demos and Repubs want power - the more power the better. The war on terror is simply another vehicle to garner that power.

Anyone watch the Daily Show last night? haha... they made the same point I was making in an earlier post - the pushing of fear. "Nothing to worry about - just be afraid of everything, everyone and every place." The government will ride that fear to the very end... taking away more personal freedoms and using it to get re-elected, or to get elected.
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Postby brinstar » Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:18 pm

pwnd!
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Postby Narrock » Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:24 pm

Let me ask you something Arlos... Do you think President Bush should be impeached? Yes or No.
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Postby Spazz » Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:40 pm

Can i answer ?????????????????
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Postby Phlegm » Thu Aug 17, 2006 5:56 pm

spazz wrote:Can i answer ?????????????????


No.
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Re: Warrantless Wiretapping ruled Unconstitutional

Postby Lyion » Thu Aug 17, 2006 7:01 pm

Diekan wrote:He didn't post his opinion - he just posted an article telling us the current situation with it... it being ruled unconstitutional (which it IS).


arlos wrote:Hooray for that Judge. I've been saying all along that warrantless wiretapping is and SHOULD BE illegal, period. Looks like the judiciary branch agrees with me.

I have no problem with wiretapping WITH a warrant, and even have no problem with the FISA system, where the government has 48 hours post-wiretapping to pbtain said warrant, should there be a case with time-critical interests. But there's *NO* reason whatsoever why the government could not submit a case to FISA within that 48 hour period, if they have a legitimate cause to be wiretapping that individual.


That looks AMAZINGLY like an opinion to me.

Anyways, it'll get sorted in court. A low level Carter appointed judge who the ACLU hand picked is not who will be making the decision.

And the program has not been stopped. Big brother is still listening to you!

STATEMENT BY THE PRESS SECRETARY

Last week America and the world received a stark reminder that terrorists are still plotting to attack our country and kill innocent people. Today a federal judge in Michigan has ruled that the Terrorist Surveillance Program ordered by the President to detect and prevent terrorist attacks against the American people is unconstitutional and otherwise illegal. We couldn’t disagree more with this ruling, and the Justice Department will seek an immediate stay of the opinion and appeal. Until the Court has the opportunity to rule on a stay of the Court's ruling in a hearing now set for September 7, 2006, the parties have agreed that enforcement of the ruling will be stayed.

United States intelligence officials have confirmed that the program has helped stop terrorist attacks and saved American lives. The program is carefully administered, and only targets international phone calls coming into or out of the United States where one of the parties on the call is a suspected Al Qaeda or affiliated terrorist. The whole point is to detect and prevent terrorist attacks before they can be carried out. That’s what the American people expect from their government, and it is the President’s most solemn duty to ensure their protection.

The Terrorist Surveillance Program is firmly grounded in law and regularly reviewed to make sure steps are taken to protect civil liberties. The Terrorist Surveillance Program has proven to be one of our most critical and effective tools in the war against terrorism, and we look forward to demonstrating on appeal the validity of this vital program.
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Postby Arlos » Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:01 am

If one of the targets is a "suspected Al Qaeda or affiliated terrorist", then why the FUCK can't they get a goddamn warrant?

If they have probable cause to suspect someone is a terrorist, then there is NO GODDAMN REASON why they should have ANY difficulty in obtaining a warrant from the FISA court. Even if the wiretapping is absolutely time critical, they still have TWO WHOLE FUCKING DAYS AFTERWARD to submit the paperwork for the warrant.

Answer me that one simple question. What *POSSIBLE* reason is there why they couldn't get a warrant if the target is someone they have legitimate reason to believe is a "suspected Al Qaeda or affiliated terrorist"? The ONLY reason why they would want the ability to ignore warrants when wiretapping someone is if they don't believe they would GET a warrant, which is exactly when they should NOT be wiretapping, period.

Sorry, no one branch of the government is above the law, and "security" is no reason to trash the Constitution. BTW, it says it's "regularly reviewed".. By who, exactly? Other parts of the intelligence apperat? Sheister McSleaze, attourney at law? Why are they so afraid to go to the FISA courts for legitimate warrants?

By the way, this is the administration that claims that the President unilaterally deciding to ignore federal law as passed by congress merely by signing a piece of paper saying he doesn't feel like abiding by the law is "Constitutional", that the military tribunals the Supreme Court slapped down were also "Constitutional", and who claimed going into the iraq war that it wouldn't cost the tax payers 1 dime.... Well, I think you can guess just how far I trust their word that THIS program is Constitutional...

Now, for Mindia: Yes, I believe Bush should be impeached. Not simply because I disagree with him, of course, that's a piss-poor reason to impeach a president. I never agreed much with his father, but I would never have called for his impeachment. I believe Bush lied to the US populace and to Congress about the reasons for going to war in Iraq, among other things. Furthermore, I feel that his unilateral flouting of legitimate laws passed by Congress (including the ban on torture) by the rampant use of "signing statements" is a naked power grab that is trying to put too much power in the hands of the executive branch, and should and must be stopped. There are other reasons to go along with these, but that'll do for now.

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Postby Narrock » Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:02 am

Arlos wrote:

Now, for Mindia: Yes, I believe Bush should be impeached. Not simply because I disagree with him, of course, that's a piss-poor reason to impeach a president. I never agreed much with his father, but I would never have called for his impeachment. I believe Bush lied to the US populace and to Congress about the reasons for going to war in Iraq, among other things. Furthermore, I feel that his unilateral flouting of legitimate laws passed by Congress (including the ban on torture) by the rampant use of "signing statements" is a naked power grab that is trying to put too much power in the hands of the executive branch, and should and must be stopped. There are other reasons to go along with these, but that'll do for now.


Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion... however, I'll show you where you're wrong when the facts are presented. Bush's invasion of Iraq was predicated upon information given to him by the CIA and other agencies. They told him there were weapons of mass destruction, and that Iraq was begging for our help. That was enough (legally as well as ethically) for Dubya to send in our troops. So then we're there for a year, killing insurgents, and then we finally catch Saddam. Now the liberals demand a search for the weapons of mass destruction. So a half-assed search is conducted and they don't find anything... :rolleyes: Until a couple months ago when they found the 2 mustard gas bombs (WMD's).

So, how the hell can you say that Bush invaded Iraq under false pretenses, and lied to the American people and to Congress. He did not. You're not thinking for yourself on this one Arlos. You're just being a sheep following your flock (democrats / move-on.org) around and believing all their bullshit. You cannot argue with the facts.

You may not like Bush, and even hate him. That's your right, and the liberals hate conservatives anyway no matter what they do. However, Bush has not committed any impeachable offense no matter which way you slice it. I don't agree with everything he does either, but I repeat... Bush has not committed an "impeachable offense."
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Postby Gidan » Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:09 am

Bush's invasion of Iraq was predicated upon information given to him by the CIA and other agencies. They told him there were weapons of mass destruction, and that Iraq was begging for our help.


And yet we have had atleat 3 different reaons that always seem to magically change to suit what the president needs at the time. Why has he needed to change the reason for going? I guess he just forgot about those the other reasons until he needed them.
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Postby Narrock » Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:10 am

gidan wrote:
Bush's invasion of Iraq was predicated upon information given to him by the CIA and other agencies. They told him there were weapons of mass destruction, and that Iraq was begging for our help.


And yet we have had atleat 3 different reaons that always seem to magically change to suit what the president needs at the time. Why has he needed to change the reason for going? I guess he just forgot about those the other reasons until he needed them.


Well, at least he didn't lie about it.
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Postby Gidan » Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:12 am

He either lied, or invaded a country on false information. You decide which is worse.
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Postby Spazz » Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:19 am

Yes, I believe Bush should be impeached. Not simply because I disagree with him, of course, that's a piss-poor reason to impeach a president. I never agreed much with his father, but I would never have called for his impeachment. I believe Bush lied to the US populace and to Congress about the reasons for going to war in Iraq, among other things. Furthermore, I feel that his unilateral flouting of legitimate laws passed by Congress (including the ban on torture) by the rampant use of "signing statements" is a naked power grab that is trying to put too much power in the hands of the executive branch, and should and must be stopped. There are other reasons to go along with these, but that'll do for now.

amen arlos .
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Postby Donnel » Fri Aug 18, 2006 10:45 am

At first I started to read what spazz posted and then realized it was too coherent and something wasn't right. Then I realized it was a lousy quote job. Then I lol'd.
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Postby Gaazy » Fri Aug 18, 2006 10:47 am

rofl I did the same thing
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Postby Spazz » Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:38 am

Ya know as of late i havent posted anything to spazztic so gimmie a fuckin break.
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Postby araby » Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:08 pm

Donnel wrote:At first I started to read what spazz posted and then realized it was too coherent and something wasn't right. Then I realized it was a lousy quote job. Then I lol'd.
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Postby Lueyen » Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:53 pm

Wait are people still under the false impression that there were not WMD's in Iraq?
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Postby Arlos » Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:16 pm

Please. Discarded and spent munitions buried in a desert since 1990 does not constitute "An Active WMD Program." Remember leading up to the war, with Cheney and Powell and Rumsfeld, et al going on TV and saying things like, "We KNOW they have X tons of Sarin, Y tons of Mustard Gas, Z tuns of Something Else, etc." and the times they pointed at maps and said "Here are the WMD labs, here are pictures of the 'mobile labs', etc".

This war was sold based on Saddam being an imminent threat to his neighbors, and even to the UK and US because of an active, ongoing WMD program, where he was generating massive stockpiles, and could easily and rapidly use them to attack! Funny how NONE of that turned out to be true. Every single investigation that went in there, even one hand picked by Bush's administration came back and said there was NO evidence of any ongoing WMD programs whatsoever. A handful of spent and unuseable former chemical munitions that had been buried in the sand for more than a decade is a FAR cry from what was announced as a reason, period.

As for Bush lying to Congress about the reasons for the war, the evidence is circumstantial, but it is there. Just look at Cheney, Wolfowitz, and the rest of the members of this administration that were part of PNAC. PNAC had published manifestos calling for the invasion of Iraq as far back as 96 or 97. Cheney was one of the PRIMARY signers of that document. Look as well as how they twisted the post-9/11 information to make it appear that Iraq was even remotely involved. They wanted to go in there from the time they entered office, 9/11 merely gave them the excuse they were looking for to be able to go through with it with at least a veneer of respectability.

EVEN APART from Iraq, Bush has presided over impeachable acts. Look at how much he has tried to consolidate near absolute power in the hands of the executive branch. From the illegal wiretapping this article discusses, to his blatant and wilful disregarding of law by the completely improper use of "signing statements" (he's done more than all ofther presidents in US history combined, and used them completely differently than any other president).

I used to think that no president would ever be worse or more damaging than Nixon. I am starting to revise that opinion, unfortunately. At least Nixon did SOME good while he was in office, despite what he later did due to being a paranoid psychopath. Bush has just left a trail of devastation in his wake. Cronyism ("Brownie, you're doing a hell of a job!"), destruction of civil liberties, condoning the use of torture, attempting to collect near-absolute power to the executive branch, disregard of science, the staggeringly huge record national debts and deficit spending... The list is near endless.

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Postby Narrock » Fri Aug 18, 2006 5:43 pm

Again, whether we went in under false pretenses or not, is not the issue. The issue is, did Bush knowingly send our troops to Iraq while having the knowledge that the information provided to him was wrong. The answer to that is absolutely and clearly, no. We found out later that the intel given to Bush was incorrect. So where is the big lie? There isn't any. The executive branch of government relies on information from the CIA, FBI, Secret Service, etc. before making decisions. It wasn't Bush's fault that the intel was wrong.

What we have here is (yet again) another classic example of how the left puts a major spin on issues.
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Postby Darcler » Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:00 pm

spazz wrote:Ya know as of late i havent posted anything to spazztic so gimmie a fuckin break.


It's not that it wasn't "spazztic", it's that it was clearly punctuated and spelled correctly. That, coupled with the lack of
this
got us a little confused.
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