Israel humbled by arms from Iran

[Arlos]

I hope they get them back safe and sound, I honestly do. But Israel's actions have effectively killed any chance they had at real peace within the next decade or longer.

-Arlos

[Trielelvan]

Arlos,
It doesn't matter if what has happened thus far is success or failure.

The point is, we need to stay out of it, and quit telling Israel what to do and how they should do it.
They have been urged, from the get-go, to stop. They, grudgingly, agreed to a ceasefire, and what happened? Right after the UN brokered Lebanon/Israel ceasefire was supposed to go into effect, Hezbollah ATTACKED. This is a cycle that is going to continuously repeat itself over and over.

There was NEVER real peace there, and there was NEVER any chance that there would be real peace there by way of the treaties and ceasefires. We like to think that this would have worked, but it was never - going - to - work. Their enemies have never forgotten that they are enemies, and will never let go that they are enemies. This is tied in Yahweh and Allah - not paper. The other side could give 2 shits about any treaty signed, because they are willing to die and die and die until they get what they want.

I admit, the odds are slim. There is the possibility that if it were to continue, that Israel may lose, and, in turn, would mean losing all that they have. However, this war isn't just about losing people to kidnapping. This is about Israel not being recognized as a state itself, and the Islamic dingbats that want all of Israel out of Israel so they can "take it back," and I sincerely doubt they will stop anytime in the near future to see that plan through to its ultimate destination.

Israel has been through "treaty" after miserable "treaty" all in the efforts of preventing exactly what is happening now. They were told to "sit down, shut up, do as your told, and the other kids will leave you alone eventually... some day... 'cause, uh, we'll get them to listen, somehow..."
They have never been left alone.

You're an American. Surely, you understand why this is worth fighting for? It doesn't matter if we think they will gain nothing.
They point is, they do, and that is their ace in the hole.
They wouldn't have started fighting if they didn't.
We, as a country, fought off Mother England to be free of her tyranny, and to become our own sovereign nation.
(Though I admit, we don't even have a sense of ourselves anymore, so it's not a wonder why we are telling the Israelis over and over again to stop.)

Our odds were pretty fuckin slim too. There were key battles where we could have easily lost, and there were battles that we did lose... and we lost a lot of men in those battles. We never stopped fighting.

The end result? We won. We kicked the shit out of the British and sent them home, declaring that THIS land is now, and forever, ours. Not theirs or anyone elses to rule - ours.

Israel faces, and has been facing, the same fate for a long, long time. WE have no right to yank their fighting hands and tell them to lay down their weapons because "it's in your best interest."

I can't believe when I hear people in this country, of all places, exclaim "Israel should never have attacked" or "This needs to stop. Look at all those poor people!"
Fuck Hezbollah, fuck Hamas, and fuck the rest of apeshit nations that want to destroy Israel. Please understand, *I* fear and hate and loathe war - it is one of the ugliest experiences in all of humanity. I would MUCH rather all the fighting stop, peace reign, and they all learn how to play nicely, but it is not going to happen... not on paper at least.

[Arlos]

Triel, sometimes war is indeed necessary. As I've said before, you will *NEVER* find me protesting the fact that we invaded Afghanistan, ever. (Protest HOW we did it, sure, cause they fucked up, but not that we DID go.)

THIS time, however, it was *NOT* necessary. Absolutely not.

Let me put it this way: Lets say you have a little brother. He gets into a fight where he has a chance of winning, or where there's a real point to the fight, you back him to the hilt. He goes around picking stupid fights with no point, or ones that he cannot win, you sit him down and tell him to stop being a fuckup and a moron.

This time Israel had no chance of accomplishing its stated objectives, none at all. That was obvious from day 1. So why SHOULDN'T we tell them, "Look, you're being idiots, what you're doing is hurting yourselves"?

Remember back to before this recent round of crap all started? Hamas was LOSING support in Palestine, because the economic sanctions were really having an effect, and the average man on the street was tired of the violence. There was > 60% support for Abbas's referendum that would have forced Hamas to recognize Israel's right to exist, which I don't think ANYONE can argue against being a major step forward. I'll bet you any amount of money that the perpetrator of the initial kidnapping was someone in Hamas who didn't WANT that to happen or for there to be peace with Israel, so they kidnapped the soldier, knowing damn well how Israel would respond.

Guess what, they were right. Israel went berserk, chose the hard option, and I now guarantee you that there is ZERO chance of that referendum passing, and Hamas' support has gone up several times over. There was a real chance for a moment of major progress there, and Israel pissed it away. If they'd shown restraint and played the diplomatic game, done the "Look what a peace loving country we are, we take such provocation and while we COULD level Gaza, we do not, etc.", they could have REALLY weakened support for Hamas among the arab community at large, etc.

Anyway, they had so much to gain by NOT going berserk, and so much to lose by military action... They've now screwed themselves for DECADES by what they did. It was *STUPID*. You don't weaken support for a underground populist movement by blowing up civilians, no matter how much you might later say you "regret" the incident...

-Arlos

[Spazz]

You make a lot of sense arlos its to bad more people cant see it that way. Everyone now days is so BOMB THEM KICK THERE ASS KILL EM ALL AND LET GOD SORT IT OUT I think they missing a bigger picture.

[Narrock]

You make a lot of sense arlos its to bad more people cant see it that way. Everyone now days is so BOMB THEM KICK THERE ASS KILL EM ALL AND LET GOD SORT IT OUT I think they missing a bigger picture.

[Spazz]

Unless you plan to kill ever person on the face of the planet who is of the muslim face, You are not going to be able to bomb them into changing there minds.

[Phlegm]

Don't worry. This is not over by a long shot. Israel and the Arabs will be waging war in the near future.

[Jay]

Hasn't Israel been waging war with Arabs since forever?

[Lyion]

Unless you plan to kill ever person on the face of the planet who is of the muslim face, You are not going to be able to bomb them into changing there minds.

It worked with Japan. A few nukes over Syria, Iran and Lebanon could work wonders for worldwide peace.

[Spazz]

Lets not get into world war 2 wich was against a country and a government vs the war on terror the 2 dont compare at all. You think we have terror problems and those fuckers think we abuse them now how do you think they will take it when us infidels nuke em ?

[Diekan]

With today’s global market and our need to share both information and technologies, isolationism won’t work.

However, the United States has a nasty habit of sticking its nose in where it doesn’t belong. Somalia, Iraq, Haiti, so on and so on… Yes, it’s troubling to hear of yet another warlord that’s wreaking havoc on some third-world dump that can’t even manage to engineer running water. But, is their liberation really worth American lives? Do they even WANT to be liberated by us? Can any of you name a conflict in which we have been directly involved where those who we were attempting to save didn’t drag our dead soldiers through the streets, burn our flag, and end up throwing their support behind the very tyrant who held them under thumb?

We really need to keep our arrogant nose out of affairs that do not directly affect us.

If the rest of the world want's to kill themselves - let 'em.

[Lionking]

Lets not get into world war 2 wich was against a country and a government vs the war on terror the 2 dont compare at all. You think we have terror problems and those fuckers think we abuse them now how do you think they will take it when us infidels nuke em ?

What Muslim cock are you sucking? You can call yourself an infidel but don't call the rest of us that fucking derogatory Muslim term.

FWIW, of all the diseases in the world that need to be eradicated, Islam is #1 in my book.

[Spazz]

What the fuck rocks are you smoking i was useing infidel being sarcastic. Its a good thing a good portion of the world doesnt read your book cuz theres a lot of muslims out there and im sure most of them dont deserve to be eradicated.

Internet tuff guy why dont you amuse us all by telling me just what youd do if i met you on the street and called oyu that dirty muslim name ??

[Lionking]

What the fuck rocks are you smoking i was useing infidel being sarcastic. Its a good thing a good portion of the world doesnt read your book cuz theres a lot of muslims out there and im sure most of them dont deserve to be eradicated.

I stand by the statement that if a Muslim practices - true - Islam, their entire life purpose is to eradicate the 'infidels' (i.e. Jews and any other non-Muslim and a derogatory term inferring lower-class status). Any Muslim that doesn't have that goal is not a true Muslim. They are practicing something contrary to what Mohammad proclaimed. Just look at the history of Islam. Anything other than spreading Islam by the 'sword' is contrary to their own Quran/Koran. Therefore, I have no problem fighting fire with fire. Destroy them before they destroy us.

Internet tuff guy why dont you amuse us all by telling me just what youd do if i met you on the street and called oyu that dirty muslim name ??

This one is pretty obvious. You would get punched in the face. However, I can't see there being much satisfication in doing that to a coke head. <shrug>.

[Lueyen]

I have to agree with Trielelvan to the extent we shouldn't have been pushing Israel to do what WE thought was best. Support them yes, pressure them into decisions no. Again I reflect on the events of 9/11, and how when it was brought to our doorstep our resolve was to seek out and obliterate the threat wherever that may be, and hypocritical it has always been for the US to constantly urge Israel to stay it's hand.

Where Israel really needed our support and did not get it was in the political realm. We helped facilitate "deals" in the UN, and orginization that refuses to define terrorisim or what a terrorist organization is. We had a former head of state, a supposed (even if self appointed) representative of this country speaking as if he was a mouthpiece for Hezbolla propoganda, good old Mr. Peanuthead. Our MSM talked about disproportiniate response, and yet Hezbollah claims victory. We hear the reports of civilians being killed, but little mention of the fact that targets of military significance were placed in and around these civilians. In the Political realm we failed misserably to support Israel.

If Syria or Iran would have become directly involved, then yes I can see us answering a call for help in a more direct nature. For those of you who think that we are somehow spread thin because of our operations in Iraq, you are severly underestimating our military. The world has yet to see (and frankly I hope it never becomes neccecary) the full capabilities of the modern day US military. It can absolutely fight on more then one front.

As a side note, and I alluded to this previously, although I fault the MSM, and people like Carter, I'm not surprised it's pretty much par for the course for them. My real disappointment here is with the Bush administration, and the way it handeled the situation in most aspects.

[Arlos]

It worked with Japan.

Oh yes, because there's SO many parallels between Japan during World War 2 and the Middle East. Not to mention, the Japanese society and culture is almost completely identical to Arab society and culture, right? Also, the world now is no different in any substantial way from how it was in 1945, correct?


Funny, I don't think a single one of those statements is even remotely accurate. So why in GODDAMN FUCKING HELL do you keep trying to claim what worked in Japan is even REMOTELY applicable to the Middle East? Fucking A, how ignorant can you get?

-Arlos

[Lyion]

First, that statement was a tad sarcastic, but might have been hard to tell. Ever see me advocate nukes before? It was in response to the liberal ignorance and silliness about the Middle East.

Second, the Japanese were tougher than the Arabs. Note, the Japanese were harder, braver, and more disciplined. They were certainly more honorable. They were not cowards like most Arabs, so the situation was a bit tougher. Ironically, we nuked them to AVOID Operation Downfall, a situation that could've been like the Iraq War, but only nastier with a lot of American deaths, versus the handful we've seen in Iraq over the past few years.

Third, you either are in the fight half ass, like we currently are, or you are in the fight to win, like we were in WW2. We know where theses terrorists are from. We know which countries support which groups.

There are some parallels to the Japanese, and obviously many things different. The Japanese, like the Islamofascists attacked our homeland. The Japanese had a culture vastly different from ours. There are certainly differences. There is no Battle of Okinawa waiting with any Arab country with 70,000+ American casualties, and not nearly as tough or resilient an enemy as the Japanese were. The only fear is we capitulate to the peace idiots and allow these countries to obtain nuclear weapons, which they'd obviously use, just like the Japanese would have.

Try going to the Middle East, Arlos. Or reading stuff from real analysts, and not silly blogs or asstastic sites that are populated with people like yourself who've never actually spent time there or understand things. Then again, you won't even give the W admin credit for no terror attacks since 9/11 and for the even more obvious Libya changes.

[Narrock]

Lyion wrote:

Then again, you won't even give the W admin credit for no terror attacks since 9/11 and for the even more obvious Libya changes.

Yeah, they just talked about that on Sean Hannity's radio show yesterday. There have been no more terrorist attacks on our own soil since 9/11. Liberals don't like to talk about that though. Dubya has been disappointing me with some decisions he's made over the past couple of years, but he does deserve credit for creating our Homeland Security department, which is doing a great job.

[Spazz]

You act like if it wasnt for king george we would have a fuckin terrorist attack on our soil everyday.... How many terrorist attacks did we have on our soil before 9/11. I think islam extremeists are scary but i dont think they are any scarier than
our government shredding the constitution and making us live in fear. Im telling you for a fucking fact that there isnt a terrorist round every corner in the usa waiting to blow something up when the vigilent bush administration turns its back.

[Lyion]

Explain to me what rights you have had violated since W came into office, Spazz.

Also, it doesn't take a terrorist around every corner. It only takes ONE, period.

[Spazz]

Not just mine everyone who lives here. You ever hear of the 4th amendment? I find it completly scary that our government is chipping away at our way of life and our promise of being free and then saying its the terrorists who are doing such. They are setting policys that CAn and prolly WILL be used on non terrorist americans sooner or later.Think of it like a game of chess lyion the peices move very slowly and before you see whats happening your in check mate. Id rather terror attacks every week than give up what america is sposed to mean. But hell if your not doing anything wrong you dont have anything to worry about right ?

Way i see it its not ok if they do it to anyone who lives in my country. Way i think lot of you see it as its fine and dandy long as they harass arabs only.

[Lyion]

You keep making this bold pronouncements but offer no factual evidence or arguements for what you are representing, Spazz.

Just as in WWII when our government monitored all calls going to Japan or Germany, I want our government monitoring calls going to Yemen, Lebanon, Iran, Sudan, and Pakistan.

Given the bipartisan nature of our country, and the fact even a simple monitoring program for listening to known terrorist hotspots is leaked, I find the exact opposite to be true, that our country has little defense and less good intelligence due to the overtly open and transparent nature of things. Do you consider Britain, France and the EU to be fascist? Note that their governments allow FAR greater monitoring and procedures than ours.

Regardless, you make wild exaggerations with no proof. It's probably a fact your life has not changed from a liberties standpoint at all when W came into office, and it won't, despite your statement that they are somehow invisibly eroding at your liberties.

[Spazz]

Lemme try again Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

What dont you get I know your not fuckin dense. Im not pissed about MY rights so much as i am pissed about the rights of everyone in the country and i am concerned that if we continue to piss on the constitution( its being destroyed by more than the war on terror but thats another thread) america is gonna be a sad place to fuckin be.

[Lyion]

Except you haven't demonstrated any of that.

The Orwellian Big Brother ain't real.

You haven't shown any rights being denied at all, just vagaries about the evilness of our Executive branch monitoring all transmissions from terrorist hotspots, regardless of where they are coming or going from.

A tangent question, Were you against us monitoring communications to and from Japan and Germany during WW2?

[Spazz]

I cant figure out why your having such a hard time drawing the line between the 4th and wiretaps without a warrant. They are doing it its been all over the news that isnt me making up big brother its shit that is happening.