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Postby Narrock » Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:34 am

arlos wrote:Some quotes directly from a blog from a mid-20s Iraqi woman living in Baghdad. Is her commentary "leftist propaganda"?:

July 11
It promises to be a long summer. We're almost at the mid-way point, but it feels like the days are just crawling by. It's a combination of the heat, the flies, the hours upon hours of no electricity and the corpses which keep appearing everywhere.

The day before yesterday was catastrophic. The day began with news of the killings in Jihad Quarter. According to people who live there, black-clad militiamen drove in mid-morning and opened fire on people in the streets and even in houses. They began pulling people off the street and checking their ID cards to see if they had Sunni names or Shia names and then the Sunnis were driven away and killed. Some were executed right there in the area. The media is playing it down and claiming 37 dead but the people in the area say the number is nearer 60.

The horrific thing about the killings is that the area had been cut off for nearly two weeks by Ministry of Interior security forces and Americans. Last week, a car bomb was set off in front of a 'Sunni' mosque people in the area visit. The night before the massacre, a car bomb exploded in front of a Shia husseiniya in the same area. The next day was full of screaming and shooting and death for the people in the area. No one is quite sure why the Americans and the Ministry of Interior didn't respond immediately. They just sat by, on the outskirts of the area, and let the massacre happen.

People are staying in their homes in the area and no one dares enter it so the wakes for the people who were massacred haven't begun yet. I haven't seen his family yet and I'm not sure I have the courage or the energy to give condolences. I feel like I've given the traditional words of condolences a thousand times these last few months, "Baqiya ib hayatkum… Akhir il ahzan…" or "May this be the last of your sorrows." Except they are empty words because even as we say them, we know that in today's Iraq any sorrow- no matter how great- will not be the last.

There was also an attack yesterday on Ghazaliya though we haven't heard what the casualties are. People are saying it's Sadr's militia, the Mahdi army, behind the killings. The news the world hears about Iraq and the situation in the country itself are wholly different. People are being driven out of their homes and areas by force and killed in the streets, and the Americans, Iranians and the Puppets talk of national conferences and progress.

It's like Baghdad is no longer one city, it's a dozen different smaller cities each infected with its own form of violence. It's gotten so that I dread sleeping because the morning always brings so much bad news. The television shows the images and the radio stations broadcast it. The newspapers show images of corpses and angry words jump out at you from their pages, "civil war… death… killing… bombing… rape…"

Rape. The latest of American atrocities. Though it's not really the latest- it's just the one that's being publicized the most. The poor girl Abeer was neither the first to be raped by American troops, nor will she be the last. The only reason this rape was brought to light and publicized is that her whole immediate family were killed along with her. Rape is a taboo subject in Iraq. Families don't report rapes here, they avenge them. We've been hearing whisperings about rapes in American-controlled prisons and during sieges of towns like Haditha and Samarra for the last three years. The naiveté of Americans who can't believe their 'heroes' are committing such atrocities is ridiculous. Who ever heard of an occupying army committing rape??? You raped the country, why not the people?

In the news they're estimating her age to be around 24, but Iraqis from the area say she was only 14. Fourteen. Imagine your 14-year-old sister or your 14-year-old daughter. Imagine her being gang-raped by a group of psychopaths and then the girl was killed and her body burned to cover up the rape. Finally, her parents and her five-year-old sister were also killed. Hail the American heroes... Raise your heads high supporters of the 'liberation' - your troops have made you proud today. I don't believe the troops should be tried in American courts. I believe they should be handed over to the people in the area and only then will justice be properly served. And our ass of a PM, Nouri Al-Maliki, is requesting an 'independent investigation', ensconced safely in his American guarded compound because it wasn't his daughter or sister who was raped, probably tortured and killed. His family is abroad safe from the hands of furious Iraqis and psychotic American troops.

It fills me with rage to hear about it and read about it. The pity I once had for foreign troops in Iraq is gone. It's been eradicated by the atrocities in Abu Ghraib, the deaths in Haditha and the latest news of rapes and killings. I look at them in their armored vehicles and to be honest- I can't bring myself to care whether they are 19 or 39. I can't bring myself to care if they make it back home alive. I can't bring myself to care anymore about the wife or parents or children they left behind. I can't bring myself to care because it's difficult to see beyond the horrors. I look at them and wonder just how many innocents they killed and how many more they'll kill before they go home. How many more young Iraqi girls will they rape?

Why don't the Americans just go home? They've done enough damage and we hear talk of how things will fall apart in Iraq if they 'cut and run', but the fact is that they aren't doing anything right now. How much worse can it get? People are being killed in the streets and in their own homes- what's being done about it? Nothing. It's convenient for them- Iraqis can kill each other and they can sit by and watch the bloodshed- unless they want to join in with murder and rape.

Buses, planes and taxis leaving the country for Syria and Jordan are booked solid until the end of the summer. People are picking up and leaving en masse and most of them are planning to remain outside of the country. Life here has become unbearable because it's no longer a 'life' like people live abroad. It's simply a matter of survival, making it from one day to the next in one piece and coping with the loss of loved ones and friends


Hardly seems to be universal approbation by the average Iraqi resident, yes? I am sure some want us there. I ams ure even some of those who voted for us to leave were glad we came. But no one with any pride in their home country would want to have soldiers of another nation occupying their country in perpetuity.

You can find people on both sides of the issue if you want to look. I am more than willing to accept the fact that there are numbers of people there who want us there. Are YOU prepared to accept the fact that there may well be as many or MORE who do not?

The life of the average Iraqi is in many ways worse than it was before we came there: Unemployment is several times higher, water and electricity are intermittent at best, there are death squads abducting, torturing & killing people by the hundreds, Iran-following shiite militias run large portions of Baghdad and make life hell for anyone not folowing strict sharia law, especially women they see going to school, working, not wearing a head scarf, etc. They have jewelry stolen by Iraqi armed forces doing house searches, have friends slaughtered int he street, have others just disappear in the middle of the night to noone-knows-where...

Nevertheless, as I said, I am indeed willing to accept your reports that many of the populace want us there. YOU need to have the "integrity and balls to leave right-wing propaganda out of the picture, and allow the partisan wall you've built in your mind" regarding the fact that at LEAST as many do NOT want us there.

-Arlos


The Jihadists don't want us there. Pretty much everybody else does.
“The more I study science the more I believe in God.” -- Albert Einstein
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Postby Evermore » Thu Sep 28, 2006 6:04 am

Narrock wrote:
arlos wrote:Some quotes directly from a blog from a mid-20s Iraqi woman living in Baghdad. Is her commentary "leftist propaganda"?:

July 11
It promises to be a long summer. We're almost at the mid-way point, but it feels like the days are just crawling by. It's a combination of the heat, the flies, the hours upon hours of no electricity and the corpses which keep appearing everywhere.

The day before yesterday was catastrophic. The day began with news of the killings in Jihad Quarter. According to people who live there, black-clad militiamen drove in mid-morning and opened fire on people in the streets and even in houses. They began pulling people off the street and checking their ID cards to see if they had Sunni names or Shia names and then the Sunnis were driven away and killed. Some were executed right there in the area. The media is playing it down and claiming 37 dead but the people in the area say the number is nearer 60.

The horrific thing about the killings is that the area had been cut off for nearly two weeks by Ministry of Interior security forces and Americans. Last week, a car bomb was set off in front of a 'Sunni' mosque people in the area visit. The night before the massacre, a car bomb exploded in front of a Shia husseiniya in the same area. The next day was full of screaming and shooting and death for the people in the area. No one is quite sure why the Americans and the Ministry of Interior didn't respond immediately. They just sat by, on the outskirts of the area, and let the massacre happen.

People are staying in their homes in the area and no one dares enter it so the wakes for the people who were massacred haven't begun yet. I haven't seen his family yet and I'm not sure I have the courage or the energy to give condolences. I feel like I've given the traditional words of condolences a thousand times these last few months, "Baqiya ib hayatkum… Akhir il ahzan…" or "May this be the last of your sorrows." Except they are empty words because even as we say them, we know that in today's Iraq any sorrow- no matter how great- will not be the last.

There was also an attack yesterday on Ghazaliya though we haven't heard what the casualties are. People are saying it's Sadr's militia, the Mahdi army, behind the killings. The news the world hears about Iraq and the situation in the country itself are wholly different. People are being driven out of their homes and areas by force and killed in the streets, and the Americans, Iranians and the Puppets talk of national conferences and progress.

It's like Baghdad is no longer one city, it's a dozen different smaller cities each infected with its own form of violence. It's gotten so that I dread sleeping because the morning always brings so much bad news. The television shows the images and the radio stations broadcast it. The newspapers show images of corpses and angry words jump out at you from their pages, "civil war… death… killing… bombing… rape…"

Rape. The latest of American atrocities. Though it's not really the latest- it's just the one that's being publicized the most. The poor girl Abeer was neither the first to be raped by American troops, nor will she be the last. The only reason this rape was brought to light and publicized is that her whole immediate family were killed along with her. Rape is a taboo subject in Iraq. Families don't report rapes here, they avenge them. We've been hearing whisperings about rapes in American-controlled prisons and during sieges of towns like Haditha and Samarra for the last three years. The naiveté of Americans who can't believe their 'heroes' are committing such atrocities is ridiculous. Who ever heard of an occupying army committing rape??? You raped the country, why not the people?

In the news they're estimating her age to be around 24, but Iraqis from the area say she was only 14. Fourteen. Imagine your 14-year-old sister or your 14-year-old daughter. Imagine her being gang-raped by a group of psychopaths and then the girl was killed and her body burned to cover up the rape. Finally, her parents and her five-year-old sister were also killed. Hail the American heroes... Raise your heads high supporters of the 'liberation' - your troops have made you proud today. I don't believe the troops should be tried in American courts. I believe they should be handed over to the people in the area and only then will justice be properly served. And our ass of a PM, Nouri Al-Maliki, is requesting an 'independent investigation', ensconced safely in his American guarded compound because it wasn't his daughter or sister who was raped, probably tortured and killed. His family is abroad safe from the hands of furious Iraqis and psychotic American troops.

It fills me with rage to hear about it and read about it. The pity I once had for foreign troops in Iraq is gone. It's been eradicated by the atrocities in Abu Ghraib, the deaths in Haditha and the latest news of rapes and killings. I look at them in their armored vehicles and to be honest- I can't bring myself to care whether they are 19 or 39. I can't bring myself to care if they make it back home alive. I can't bring myself to care anymore about the wife or parents or children they left behind. I can't bring myself to care because it's difficult to see beyond the horrors. I look at them and wonder just how many innocents they killed and how many more they'll kill before they go home. How many more young Iraqi girls will they rape?

Why don't the Americans just go home? They've done enough damage and we hear talk of how things will fall apart in Iraq if they 'cut and run', but the fact is that they aren't doing anything right now. How much worse can it get? People are being killed in the streets and in their own homes- what's being done about it? Nothing. It's convenient for them- Iraqis can kill each other and they can sit by and watch the bloodshed- unless they want to join in with murder and rape.

Buses, planes and taxis leaving the country for Syria and Jordan are booked solid until the end of the summer. People are picking up and leaving en masse and most of them are planning to remain outside of the country. Life here has become unbearable because it's no longer a 'life' like people live abroad. It's simply a matter of survival, making it from one day to the next in one piece and coping with the loss of loved ones and friends


Hardly seems to be universal approbation by the average Iraqi resident, yes? I am sure some want us there. I ams ure even some of those who voted for us to leave were glad we came. But no one with any pride in their home country would want to have soldiers of another nation occupying their country in perpetuity.

You can find people on both sides of the issue if you want to look. I am more than willing to accept the fact that there are numbers of people there who want us there. Are YOU prepared to accept the fact that there may well be as many or MORE who do not?

The life of the average Iraqi is in many ways worse than it was before we came there: Unemployment is several times higher, water and electricity are intermittent at best, there are death squads abducting, torturing & killing people by the hundreds, Iran-following shiite militias run large portions of Baghdad and make life hell for anyone not folowing strict sharia law, especially women they see going to school, working, not wearing a head scarf, etc. They have jewelry stolen by Iraqi armed forces doing house searches, have friends slaughtered int he street, have others just disappear in the middle of the night to noone-knows-where...

Nevertheless, as I said, I am indeed willing to accept your reports that many of the populace want us there. YOU need to have the "integrity and balls to leave right-wing propaganda out of the picture, and allow the partisan wall you've built in your mind" regarding the fact that at LEAST as many do NOT want us there.

-Arlos


The Jihadists don't want us there. Pretty much everybody else does.





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Postby Zanchief » Thu Sep 28, 2006 6:26 am

Harrison wrote:I can see it now.

We leave intentionally and terrorists claim a victory over western oppression on Islam.


Would it be better if you're forced to leave unintentionally?

I just don't see a situation where you can come out of this and keep a stable Iraqi government. You can’t kill every insurgent, and once you leave, the people who appose Western control over Islamic states are not going to leave. Nothing has changed since day one of this war. You're still fighting an ideology with bullets, and I don't see how you can win.
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Postby Arlos » Thu Sep 28, 2006 8:20 am

Mindia, that woman that wrote that is about as far from a Jiihadist as you can get. She used to work as a computer tech and really loved her job, she lived on her own, has a college degree, and used to go around all the time with no head-scarf. She was not a Baathist in any way, she did not like Saddam at all, she was just an average woman living in Baghdad. She htes violence, PERIOD, regardless of who the source is.

Now, she's unemployed and the odds of her EVER being able to work in Iraq in her profession again are just abotu nil given the massive influence of the Iran-backed clerics. She had to give up her apartment and move back in with her parents. She cannot drive any more, as women who drive are generally yanked from their cars and beaten, sometimes to death. Likewise, women who go without head-scarves risk not only their own safety, but the safety of those they are with. Even CHRISTIAN Iraqi women are wearing head-scarves now lest they get in trouble for not doing so.

Ultimately, she's just like you or me: She just wants to live her life in peace and security, etc. Right now, due to the US invasion, she cannot, and her life has gotten markedly worse since we invaded. Why then should she feel grateful? When she has lost numerous freedoms, has to live day to day with maybe 3-4 hours of electricity on a given day, intermittent water, friends geting shot dead int he street for no reason... What has she to feel grateful about?

Also, you failed to look past your right-wing propaganda like I asked. Even if the majority of people are glad we came, that is NOT in any way mutually exclusive with a concurrent desire that we get out, now that we've gotten rid of Saddam for them. As I said, a good chunk of the insurgency is based on Iraqi nationalism, and the desire to have an INDEPENDANT Iraq, free from the occupying troops of a foreign power, which is an entirely understandable motive, and very different from the al-qaidist motive.

Ultimately, we never should have gone, period. However, if we're really all about promoting Democracy in Iraq, as Bush keeps claiming, why NOT have a national voter referendum on the presence of the US troops? As I said, if a majority of voters truly want us to say, it would give the Republicans and their allies powerful ammunition in their current poltical arguments here in the US. If a majority actually want us to leave, however.....

Lastly, I want to know by what basis you claim that University of Maryland poll to be "bullshit". Is it merely because you don't like the results? Unfortunately, you cannot dismiss a poll simply based on tgetting a result you don't like. If you wish to challenge a poll, you need to find a flaw in the methodology: either the questions or more important the sampling used to select the respondents. Otherwise, polls are a direct application of statistical science and math, and as such have a modicum of validity that cannot be simply dismissed just because the result is one you do not like. Having studied a lot of statistics, I'm telling you this from my own knowledge, by the way, so I can speak on the matter with some authority. Now, I'm not saying the poll was valid or invalid, I haven't looked at the details of their questions, methodology and sampling. I'm just saying that if YOU want to dismiss it, that's what YOU will have to look at.

-Arlos
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Postby Lueyen » Thu Sep 28, 2006 8:04 pm

Gargamellow wrote:Lue..you traitor...we went over it in my ethnic sociology class so fuck you and the horse you rode in on


Traitor? I've neither sworn any allegiance to an anti Pope organization (if such a thing even exists), I've also never given my word that I would not disagree with something you've said, especially when it's in regards to you disagreeing with something I've said. That being the case I'm curious as to what it is I've done or said that you feel warrants calling me a traitor, and telling me and my horse "fuck you" (As a side note I think my horse felt unfairly attacked due to having nothing to do with the conversation)?

You went over it in your class, okay so tell me did that include studying the discourse as a whole or merely the part(s) that some Muslims see as outrageous attacks on their faith? I honestly do not see how anyone can look at the whole speech and call it judgmental and out of line, and your response didn't exactly explain your reasons for feeling it did. If you've read the whole speech I'd be curious if it's the same as the one I've read. I suspect that the speech was not given in English, and so I wonder if the differences in view of content are due to a difference in translation.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2006/september/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20060912_university-regensburg_en.html
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Those who are willing to be the most ruthless always win. The pacifists always lose, because the anti-pacifists kill them.
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