Phoenix Suns

[vonkaar]

Look at it this way, last year I could've sworn the Mavs were better than the Heat...

Are you going to have an argument at sometime during this discussion? At least Zan is providing some sort of counterpoints here and there.

1) "The media" thinks Phoenix is better, therefore I agree. baaaaah
2) Last year, the Mavs lost to the Heat in the finals...

What the fuck is your point right now? I've made several concessions here... Amare "could" put Phoenix over the top... the SA win was very impressive... etc... I have no idea what you are even trying to say anymore. Phoenix and Dallas are very even, but it is my OPINION, and I have FACTS to back it up, that Dallas is the superior team. You think that Phoenix is stronger, but your entire argument can be summed up in those 2 statements. I'm arguing with Mindia.

[Arlos]

Well, there's 2 seperate, but similar arguments that can be made on this, Vonk.

1) Which team has been the better team over the balance of the season. Obviously, that would be the Mavs, for the reasons you've elucidated.

2) Which team is the better team RIGHT NOW. This is an entirely seperate argument from number 1. It would seem to me that Lyion and Zan are arguing regarding this point, while you're continuing to argune on #1.

We all know that teams go through up and down cycles over the course of the season. Right now, Phoenix is on a major UP cycle, and is playing like a better team than Dallas is at THIS moment. That could change in a week.

Now, who knows going forward whether or not the answer to question number 1 will change. As you said, if Amare keeps playing like he did against the Spurs, than it may well. It hasn't yet, though. But the answer to question number 2 will almost constantly be in flux, and frequently will be a different answer than the answer to number 1.

-Arlos

[vonkaar]

Fine and dandy, but I'd still say that the point is flawed. You people clearly aren't watching the games... I've seen 20 Phoenix games this season and I've seen all but 1 of the Mavs games.

I can't even swallow the idea that they are playing better basketball. You guys simply aren't watching the Mavs play. The league is in love with the Suns style because it's GREAT for business. And I don't mean it from a conspiracy standpoint... it truly IS entertaining. The Spurs/Pistons finals probably sucked for all but the 2% of us who really enjoy a defensive slugout. But EVERY writer is sitting back, writing about how unstoppable the Suns are, without paying attention to the fact that they have BARELY proven themselves.

I'm making the EXACT point that people were saying about MY MAVS for FIVE STRAIGHT YEARS. I was on the OTHER side of this battle... we were on course for a 67-win season back in 03 (finished with 60)... started the season out 14-0. I was yelling about how UNSTOPPABLE we were, and most of the media agreed. But we were stopped... because we were a 1-dimensional team with no defense. San Antonio rolled over us... Sacramento ate us alive... but we certainly tore through the Magic, Nuggets, Suns(.220 team back then) and Hawks with ridiculous ease. Hell, Shawn Bradley had a game against Portland where he grabbed 22 rebounds and had 9 blocks.

My point is, the Mavs are being ignored by everyone besides a very select few. Ya'll are reading the mass-media viewpoint and focusing on the Suns of 'now'. And, in last-night's game, the announcers kept repeating that. The mantra was, "The Suns want to prove that they've come a long way since that 1-5 start... they aren't the same team..."

Fine. Take away that start and they are 36-4(.900). Fucking killer. To be fair, Dallas didn't start out 0-4. That puts them at 38-5(.883). I can STILL make the argument that they've played scrubs almost all year long. Phoenix has played 14 teams that are over .500 since that time, Dallas has played 21. That means the remaining 26 games that the Suns played were against LOSING teams. We've had a harder schedule yet we've come out pretty much the same.

Finally...

It all comes down to these next few weeks. Phoenix gets the chance to prove themselves (Utah, Denver, Chicago, Clippers, Minnesota, Indiana and Lakers over the next 30) and DALLAS is going to enjoy the cushy schedule that I've bitched about Phoenix enjoying. February is half easy but then March is like... ridiculously easy. If Phoenix cruises through those opponents with ease yet Dallas doesn't rip apart the East like the Suns did, then the PROOF... the FACTS totally favor the Suns.

[Zanchief]

I think it's being shortsighted of you to assume we are loving the Suns because of mass media. In my case, this couldn't be further from the truth.

[Lyion]

Ditto here. I despise the Suns way of basketball.

My point is simply the Suns seemed to be playing inspired ball over the last month, and the games I've watched they've been hitting on all cylinders. How did the Mavs and Suns compare record wise?

I've watched five Mav games over the last month and the same wasn't true of them. Most of the games were also against the 'easy' conference teams, but a lot of them were more back and forth games and the Mavs to me have looked like a beatable team playing a lot of the foes Phoenix crushed.

Again, you keep pulling meaningless stats out and presenting them as facts. The Suns and Mavs have almost identical records, and in watching both teams I find the Suns to be the better team right now

Its not a factual debate, it's an OPINION.

What were the Heat and Mavs records last year? What were their head to head records? Miami turned out to be the better team there, so stats generally are not factual for predetermining things in every case.

[vonkaar]

Well, I think you are wrong about Miami... but that's a whole different discussion... plus, you could always counter by quoting my, "a win is a win..."

Anyway... for some reason, when I went to bed last night... my mind traveled across the days events... the various bs that flies through my brain when I'm falling asleep, gouda... superwoman... transformers... oh, and then NT... and then I realized that this whole thing is a big "Chocolate vs Vanilla" debate... and I felt really immature for getting so involved in it.

I mean, it's one thing when Malluas argued that Mike Bibby would go down as a greater PG than Steve Nash... those 'debates' could get heated... but...

bleh, whatever...
go mavs

[Jay]

Hey all. The Bulls won last night against the Supersonics. Gogo.

[vonkaar]

Also...

I'm sort of in a crunch for tonight's game... and Zan knows why.

On one hand, I've said all year long that Utah is overrated and they'll likely fizzle out before the season is out... I said that back when they were 12-2, tearing through the top teams... I still think that Sloan is the dirtiest coach in league history and a total dirtbag.

But on the other... I'm in a crunch because of all the shit I've talked about Phoenix.

If Phoenix wins, I can say, "but it was without Boozer, Utah's best player."
If Phoenix loses, I can say, "hah! without Boozer even!"



but then... I already talked shit about Utah, which deflates my theory that this was really a test...

Still, any loss for Phoenix is good for us... #1 spot is sooooo important.

[Jay]

Phoenix vs. Chicago on the 11th in Phoenix. Anyone else excited?

[vonkaar]

Hey, I listed them as one of the 'hard' teams that the Suns have to face this month... I give the Bulls their props.

I mean... it's still the East, but...

[vonkaar]

And just so ya'll are aware...

In the past 10 games..
Dallas has beaten both Utah and Minnesota, while Phoenix has failed to do either... and we played Utah at full strength.

Although, I already covered that angle didn't I?

[Zanchief]

Beat minny by one point. It's not like you're steamrolling these teams.

[vonkaar]

We already covered that...

Phoenix beat the Bulls, Nets, Raptors and KNICKS by a combined 7 points.

Plus, we were up for the ENTIRE game, we merely staved off a last second push by a maddedend KG / Hassel

Furthermore, Avery tends to play more conservatively against the "lesser" teams. J-Ho and Dirk's numbers are much lower, Stack's goes up... lots of bench time, etc. We beat Memphis by 1, Minnesota by 1, Sacramento by 2. Against the best teams, it's a different story. In the past month we've beaten the LAKERS by 19, the JAZZ by 8, the Magic by 16, the Heat by 6, the Spurs by 5 and the Clippers by 32. All could potentially be top-4 playoff seeds.

But, again... a win is a win.

[Phlegm]

This is my top five teams in the NBA right now:

1. Dallas
2. Phoenix
3. San Antonio
4. Houston
5. Utah

All five are in the West because the East currently sucked ass.

[Phlegm]

Well, the Suns are sucking ass right now. I guess they can't win without Steve Nash.

[Xaiveir]

But, again... a win is a win.

That is so true. Doesnt matter if you win by 100 or 1 point. Looks the same in morning. Dallas is very impressive.

[vonkaar]

Proves the point about a 6-7 man rotation.

If you are so thin that you can't afford to lose one man...

This season, Dallas is 4-1 without Josh Howard, 3-0 without Dirk and 5-0 without Jason Terry... those are our 3 best players.

Phoenix is 1-4 without Steve Nash. Their only win was against shit-ass Portland, and they narrowly pulled it off.

When you have a bench as deep as Dallas, and you don't play your starters 45 minutes a game like Phoenix has to... wonderful things happen.

[Zanchief]

They could absorb injuries to any starter but Nash.

[vonkaar]

Last year they were
0-3 without Nash
1-4 without Raja Bell
0-1 without Shawn Marion

and...
heh,
20-9 without Kurt Thomas

The point is... they NEVER have injuries but they have a pretty horrible record when any of them go down. D'Antoi plays them more minutes because his bench SUCKS. It's only a matter of time before they have 'another' serious injury and this shallow team is even more exposed.

[Zanchief]

Man you are digging a pretty big hole if your boys lose to em in the playoffs.

[vonkaar]

Actually... all I'm hating on is the love that Phoenix got all year. That's where this started. I said, "Dallas deserves equal if not better recognition." And... look where we are? Dallas is now the undisputed favorite and everyone is questioning Nash's health. Both teams were on a blistering pace. The Mavs have kept it up but Phoenix cooled down significantly.

SO FAR, I've only been proven right. The 'media' was wrong, and I was right. Nyah nyah.

The thread started with, "Wow! Phoenix! They look unstoppable." I countered with, "Of course they can be stopped. They play decent teams and they lose." Turns out I was right. Health is an issue... Depth is an issue... Lack of defense is an issue. Dallas and Detroit have none of those (as Dirk breaks his leg in the all-star game). I see them meeting in the finals.

[Zanchief]

And if they lose in the playoffs I will be right and I can go nyah nyah (what ever that means).

Plus Phoenix has had tons of injuries the last few years and they've sustained them.

Also no one is really questioning Nash's health, they're really just talking about how he's the true MVP candidate since the team has struggled so much with him injured, but you can chalk that up phoenix biased media.

[vonkaar]

Your team losing (negative) because you miss some time (negative) shouldn't equal a positive. That's lemons to lemonaide. Spin control.

Your team consistantly WINNING (positive) because you are proving yourself to be a great leader and consistantly putting up MVP numbers (positive) and staying healthy (positive) >should< equal a positive. That's putting a positive spin on an already positive thing.

Yeah yeah... "it shows how much they NEED him" wah wah... if that's the case, Yao's proven to be the MVP for the past 3 years in a row. Great numbers and his team sucks ass when he goes down. This year, they might be the #1 team if he hadn't busted his knee. He had the MVP numbers AND the winning team to help his case. You think Avery should sideline Dirk and throw some games so Dirk could get some crybaby love? [font=Times New Roman, serif]The Mavs finally lost because Dirk was out! [/font]MVP! MVP! Fuck that shit. Show up, put up your killer numbers, win the games, do something in the playoffs. I mean, even WITH Nash, Phoenix is still 3-9 against playoff teams in the West. Oh, but they NEED him!

[Zanchief]

I wasn't saying it was right. I was just pointing out how the media has spun it. You frothing hatred of the Suns is comical though.

You've actually got me rooting against the Mavs just because I don't like it when fans get this full of themselves and I love to see them come back down to earth.

Side note, Houston has been playing great without Yao this year.

[vonkaar]

I was WAY worse vs the Spurs, fyi