Scryer or Aldor...

[Tacks]

Then those mages are in greens or suck.

I could shoot my gun and outdamage some of the tards who play the game.

[Ginzburgh]

Not that I have any clue what I am talking about, I am only relaying information given to me. One of the guys that used to be in my guild switched servers to be in a big frontrunner guild, I was talking to him last night and he said that druids are currently the most overpowered class in the game. He said his guild doesn't bring warriors to Kharazan, they use a druid as their main tank. He has 28,000 hp buffed, has 30,000 armor and does more damage in bear form than most of their dps.

[Tacks]

Your friend is a huge liar.

28,000 hp lolz

[Ginzburgh]

He said, "28,000 buffed" and I said, "armor?" and he said, "no, HP" and I said, "err..."

But they DO use that druid as their maintank in Kharazan. That much I know for fact.

[Tacks]

Sure, you can use bear tanks in there easily. Does he have 28k hp though? No

We must be fucking amazing then to do it with 14k warrior tanks I guess.

[Ginzburgh]

Yeah, I'd be interested to see a SS of his HP at 28,000.

[Lyion]

I'm in ghetto gear and I have 15k buffed hps as a Bear, and 12k armor, and I'm only level 67..

I don't think we're overpowered, and I'm not sure how much a factor we have tanking endgame now, but we weren't viable without critical strike mitigation pre BC, as well as our lack of Parry and Block.

Druids in groups are amazing, but unfortunately there are both a lot of bad Druids as well as a lot of ignorant people who don't understand the class.

[Ginzburgh]

I'm in ghetto gear and I have 15k buffed hps as a Bear, and 12k armor, and I'm only level 67..

Well, maybe it is possible to hit 28k then. The druid I was referring to is 70 and probably has the best gear in the game.

[Tacks]

Nobody has the best gear in the game yet. Even with the best in every slot it's beyond reach.

I'm guessing you can get around 5k from buffs including the HP flask.

67-70 will only net you another 750 hp.

Let's do some simple math here. We'll assume that he only has 14,000 UNBUFFED hp. With talents that bring him to 20,000.

Here's a link showing items over 60 stamina in the entire game including even mail and plate items (you know of course druids can only wear leather or cloth)http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/itemadvsearch.html?itemname=&binds=-1&minlevel=&maxlevel=&mindps=&maxdps=&speedmin=0.0&speedmax=999.0&effect=0&showall=0&dep=n&source=Live&stat1=stamina&statval1=60&stat2=0&statval2=&stat3=0&statval3=&sort1=0&sortwt1=&sort2=0&sortwt2=&sort3=0&sortwt3=&sort4=0&sortwt4=&sort5=0&sortwt5=&sort6=0&sortwt6=&sort7=0&sortwt7=&sort8=0&sortwt8=&locale=enUS&search=1



Flask=1200 hp
Fort=1000ish
MOTW=200
food buff=400?
kings=?1000 depends

That's 3800 being generous

enchants:
helm 80
chest 150
wrist 120
boots 120
legs 80
we'll assume he enchants so 80 for rings

That's 630

4430 total there

I can't add his stamina from socket but even at 10x6 theres another 600 to bring it to 5000.

20,000 + 5000=25000. Now lets see what gear brings him to 14k unbuffed and we're still 3000 short.

[Ginzburgh]

Are you taking enchants / socket items into consideration?

[Burgy99]

I did mechanar last night and one of our druids speced 31/30 balance /resto to fuck around with and had over 1300 healing and 600 spell damage, and he was running with me in damage. Thats not even full moonkin, thats just 31 points. Granted he nuked early and pulled aggro alot, but for him to be even close to my damage is kinda silly. I'm heavy frost with a few points into arcane and 624 spell damage. This is the same druid who went feral and tanked kharazan with 16k health and some insane armor, 20kish. Give it a few months and I'm sure they will see some form of nerf.

[Lyion]

You aren't adding in Druid talents to your calculations, Taxx, such as Heart of the wild, which adds 20% to ones stamina.

[Tacks]

re-read it

[Lyion]

I did mechanar last night and one of our druids speced 31/30 balance /resto to fuck around with and had over 1300 healing and 600 spell damage, and he was running with me in damage. Thats not even full moonkin, thats just 31 points. Granted he nuked early and pulled aggro alot, but for him to be even close to my damage is kinda silly. I'm heavy frost with a few points into arcane and 624 spell damage. This is the same druid who went feral and tanked kharazan with 16k health and some insane armor, 20kish. Give it a few months and I'm sure they will see some form of nerf.

31 points in balanace gets Moonkin form. He just doesn't get the three elementals, or Twilights Wrath which are nice, but not as good as dumping 31 into Resto.

If one goes 31/30 I'd go 31 Resto for Swiftmend which is godly. Moonkin isn't as good because one is limited to balance spells and no heals in Moonkin form, although the bonus and AC are nice.

Taxx, rereading your post I can see you have bear buffs into play there. I checked out what I thought I could get with full stamina, and 28k does seem very high. I can't say what kinda gear and sockets are showing up in BC yet, but since none of my socketed gear is enchanted yet, just with ghetto jewelry it's tough to say what's possible...

I bet we'll see 20k warriors and 25k Druids though by summer...

[Arlos]

Bear Tanks will always be at a disadvantage so long as they have no mechanism for avoiding Crushing Blows, like warriors & paladins can with shield blocking. Also, there's a distinct lack of +defense items available to leather wearers as compared to plate wearers.

One area where Warriors will ALWAYS be necessary is for mobs where the use of Shield Wall is essential. Doomwalker, for example, who enrages at 25%, does untankable levels of damage, plus doing an unresistable and undispellable/uncureable 4-tick large AOE dot that does 4000hp/tick. ONLY a warrior with an active shield wall will be able to survive that level of incoming DPS.

That said, there are cases where druid tanks do well, and other cases where pally tanks can shine. For example, I am FAR better at holding aggro on a large group of mobs at once than either a warrior or a druid. I can literally hold 8-10 mobs at once while mages are going full-out AOEing, and never lose aggro onto the mages. I've had a warlock in my group with near 1000 +damage gear deliberately TRY to pull aggro off of me, stacking 4 seeds of corruption and then hellfiring on top of it, and he couldn't do it.

All in all, I'm pretty happy with most of the changes they've made to hybrids. Before the expansion, we were all strictly relegated to healbot roles, period. Druids are the best-done example of this, really. Moonkin can do good spell DPS, and their group buff is an EXCELLENT damage increaser for other casters. As resto, they are fully competant main healers. They lack fade, but there are trinkets you can get that mimic the effect of fade anyway. As feral, they become that true "jack of all trades, master of none" role, able to tank OK, do decent DPS, etc.

For paladins, we could still use some diversity, as we've really only got 2 roles: Healbot and Tank. Even a fully retribution pally won't touch even a arms warrior's DPS, unless they have THE best gear in the game and completely abandon all pretense of even being a paladin. I knew one pally like that pre-xpac, with dark edge of insanity, etc. who could sometimes crack the top-10 DPS list, but had like 1500 mana, wore leather and chain for the atk power & crit benefits, etc. Right now, the +% melee crit from the enhanced judgement of crusader means having 1 retribution pally along is useful, but no more than that.

-Arlos