States revolt against National ID.

[Snero]

I think I'm going to be sick, agreeing with fin now

[Evermore]

this isnt a what if its a when and this isnt the only reason. it just happens to be the focus of the conversation atm

[Lueyen]

The what if the database is compromised isn't really a "what if" question in my mind. It WILL be compromised. Even with additional security, it will be no where near the level of other government agencies. In fact it won't even be a case of someone hacking it as much as some DMV employee or police officer selling it.

Currently there are some massive check fraud rings operating that are generating massive amounts of cash, people at the high end HAVE purchased from DMV employees and police all state DMV records and these records are circulated through out these various loose organizations. The difference should this system be implemented is that those who operate these rings will no longer have to maintain compromised contacts in every state.... just one, and due to "competition" it will be easier for them. Keep in mind that this is ongoing as this criminal element needs updated info every year.

[Snero]

so if it's happening anyways, how is this an argument against?

[Lueyen]

so if it's happening anyways, how is this an argument against?

The difference should this system be implemented is that those who operate these rings will no longer have to maintain compromised contacts in every state.... just one, and due to "competition" it will be easier for them. Keep in mind that this is ongoing as this criminal element needs updated info every year.

[Lyion]

I think you misconstrue standardized for inter operability with centralized, Lueyen. We aren't creating a master control program, here.

Likewise, it's much easier to monitor and manage an interoperable system than 200 disparate ones.

Fraud occurs from being able to hide and work a convoluted system. Simplify the system and you catch the cheaters quicker and easier, and you also allow for the victims to be aided faster.

[Evermore]

We aren't creating a master control program, here.

thats EXACTLY what you are doing.

[Ganzo]

paranoid much?

[Harrison]

I think this is the same guy who called the police the Mafia.

I believe that qualifies you for the tin-foil hat and badge of paranoia.

[Lueyen]

Lyion the law would require states share their databases with each other, no matter what form this takes to at least an extent DMV personnel and Police Officers will have access to records for all 50 states. One DMV employee could conceivably supply a nations worth of records rather then just a states.

To make things even more entertaining the new system would require digital copies of all proof documents supplied. Now not only would identity thieves who acquire the database have your basic information, but digital copies of documents such as birth certificates. No law only specifies the minimum of what must be shared, not specific with limitations. It is conceivable that states may refuse to release these electronic records in their shared databases, but it's unlikely as the justifications for doing so would be the very same justifications for the law.

Laws written with only minimums and not limitation are dangerous indeed, as they can easily end up mandating or authorizing far more then they specify. That is the basic problem with this law, it removes the barrier currently between the states without any limitation on what pieces of information are shared and how, it only specifying a minimum of what MUST be shared.

[Lyion]

Anyone can access a persons information via their SSN number now, Lueyen.

Also, the current system allows someone from another state to steal your identity, and there is nothing you can do about it without major legal hassles, and no way for the two states to coordinate things legally. This will change that. This is good.

You perceive it as removing a barrier, and I do as well. That barrier is currently why we have ridiculous amounts of identity theft with no prosecutions and many, many people devastated, because systems do not operate, and there aren't the checks and ease that would prevent more fraud and allow an easier time recovering from it and catching those performing it.

[Lueyen]

The reason we have massive identity theft problems isn't because of DMV ID accuracy or information sharing. People producing fake ID's are not using the system to get them, they are making them at home on computers. Where the real meat of the id theft is, is in credit cards and checks. In short it is not the short coming of government or law enforcement, and although I'm sure improvements could be made (even in personal record flow) nothing law enforcement can do will quell the problem. Law enforcement is for the most part dealing with the symptom, not the sickness. The sickness is our banking system and retailers.

For credit cards (and to a similar extent debit cards with a credit card logo) there is a monstrous lack of verification on the retail end. I travel quite often and use my personal credit cards for my expenses, and I use almost exclusively my debit card when making my own purchases. I'd say around 90 percent of the time at best if I'm signing something with a clerk present I get maybe a cursory signature check. About 5 percent of the time I actually have my ID checked. A growing number of times I see my debit card which is supposed to require either a pin or signature being used without either, nor an ID check. On the back of every single one of my cards I sign and write "Check ID". The retail industry is completely desensitized to credit card fraud. I've asked some of my clients who have systems designed to blindly accept cards without a pin or sig how they can stand for the liability, I've been told it's the cost of doing business. The absolute worst I've seen is Gas pumps that authorize and require absolutely no verification and there is no one present. Most of these stations do have surveillance, but with the growing number of computer based camera systems and the storage methods used, most places have a week worth of recording which is then dumped. The best I've seen was a month, but that was on the top end systems.

About two years ago I lost a credit card, the only thing I can figure is that it slipped out of my wallet when I was getting something else out of it. I did not realize I had lost it until I got a call from the credit card company. In a period of 5 days before the banks computers flagged irregular activity, someone went on a shopping spree, including gas, c-store crap, department store purchases and theater tickets. Basically they didn't make any overly large purchases, just had a hell of a weekend party. This was really annoying because the types of purchases were completely out of character for me. I charge large ticket items, car rentals, motels, plane tickets ect... not junk food and theater tickets. In the end the credit card company handled it with the speed and efficiency like it happened every day... and that is the dirty little secret, it does. This is the simplest form of card fraud... the inventiveness of organized groups goes far beyond this.

Remember Ralph posting about overseas checks bouncing after the bank verified them AFTER he'd shipped equipment? Check fraud is even worse, even more complex, and directly related to open holes in the way banks deal with checks. I know someone who was for a period of about a year and a half heavily involved in a check ring, at some of the highest levels. He personally made around 200k in one year all on check scams. He didn't stop until he got busted, he spent a short time in jail then made a deal, part of which was showing banks the holes in their procedure and operations that he and others exploited. There were quite a few major changes in several bank chains in the North West that were a direct result of the information he provided. A friend of mine had some checks stolen out of his mail box, and in the week before it was caught there were around 5k in checks out, and even a year later he is still dealing with issues surrounding it. The guy I know who was busted in the check ring provided information which was given to the police about the person he suspected of stealing the checks.... the guy had a regular route in the neighborhood. Sometimes fake ID's are used, and frankly these fake ID's will be produced regardless, electronic stripe with info included. These ID's won't be produced by DMV but by individuals at home on computers armed with some special equipment, AND DMV database records, only of course now they will have an easier time obtaining more then just a few state databases.

How much credit card crap is mailed to people... how many have locks on their mail box?

No sorry the problem is not in State records or information exchange, the problem is in the private financial sector and this resolution will not alleviate the problem in the least. If your basement is flooding due to a broken pipe, it does you little good to start pumping water out unless you fix the pipe... even if you get a bit larger pump which is what this bill would amount to in the analogy.

[Evermore]

I think this is the same guy who called the police the Mafia.

I believe that qualifies you for the tin-foil hat and badge of paranoia.

it's not paranoia, moron. its me knowing that the government is incapable of managing anything properly and protecting this information from theft.

You do realize that most identity thefts occur because of compromised data systems? Prolly not. Sheep.


Lueyen does bring up another good point the private sector needs to "fix the pipe" as well.

[Tikker]

For credit cards (and to a similar extent debit cards with a credit card logo) there is a monstrous lack of verification on the retail end. I travel quite often and use my personal credit cards for my expenses, and I use almost exclusively my debit card when making my own purchases. I'd say around 90 percent of the time at best if I'm signing something with a clerk present I get maybe a cursory signature check. About 5 percent of the time I actually have my ID checked. A growing number of times I see my debit card which is supposed to require either a pin or signature being used without either, nor an ID check.

Ok, so your arguement against a national ID is that you feel your ID isn't being checked enough?

[Lueyen]

Ok, so your arguement against a national ID is that you feel your ID isn't being checked enough?

Cliff notes for Tikker:

Because the private sector has so many holes in financial transactions no amount of governmental changes are going to have a significant effect on the reduction of identity theft crimes because the financial sector, not government is the source of the problem.

[Lyion]

Government checks have nothing to do with standardization, nor does your argument really make any valid non 'big brother' points against this, in my opinion, or prevent a strong argument for making fraud 'easier'. I believe the opposite.

I've repeated myself a few times, and I can understand those who feel this is a waste of money, but I personally think it's a good idea and hope it gets implemented.

[Tikker]

Ok, so your arguement against a national ID is that you feel your ID isn't being checked enough?

Cliff notes for Tikker:

Because the private sector has so many holes in financial transactions no amount of governmental changes are going to have a significant effect on the reduction of identity theft crimes because the financial sector, not government is the source of the problem.

so, what's your arguement against national ID again?

Cliff notes for Lueyen:
big brother isn't watching you

[Lueyen]

Ok, so your arguement against a national ID is that you feel your ID isn't being checked enough?

Cliff notes for Tikker:

Because the private sector has so many holes in financial transactions no amount of governmental changes are going to have a significant effect on the reduction of identity theft crimes because the financial sector, not government is the source of the problem.

so, what's your arguement against national ID again?

Cliff notes for Lueyen:
big brother isn't watching you

In my last few posts I was not addressing the big brother issue. I was addressing the security implications of state databases tied together and arguing that this act would provide little in the way of stopping identity theft and in some aspects make it easier.

[Harrison]

You do realize that most identity thefts occur because of compromised data systems?

HOLY SHIT OMG REALLY?!



How's that tin foil hat fitting today? Has the Mafia pulled you over for speeding today and demanded a hefty sum to pay for their drug ring in the form of a ticket?

[Evermore]

You do realize that most identity thefts occur because of compromised data systems?

HOLY SHIT OMG REALLY?!



How's that tin foil hat fitting today? Has the Mafia pulled you over for speeding today and demanded a hefty sum to pay for their drug ring in the form of a ticket?

I expected this from someone of your intelligence lvl. its not even insulting, its pathetic.

[Lueyen]

paranoid much?

Remember just because you are paranoid does not mean they aren't out to get you.

[Tikker]

In my last few posts I was not addressing the big brother issue. I was addressing the security implications of state databases tied together and arguing that this act would provide little in the way of stopping identity theft and in some aspects make it easier.

it doesn't make it easier, it might make it faster tho

instead of compromising 50 systems, they only need to do 1 (worst case scenario)

there's no way you'll ever be able to argue that 50 systems are going to be more secure than 1 system
if you can crack 1, you'll crack all of them just as easily

[Arlos]

Well, the other argument certainly still holds water. Right now, if you find a corrupt DMV official in Idaho, say, all he can sell you is personal data from people in Idaho. Connect all the state systems into one centralized national system, and he could sell you ANYONE's data.

-Arlos

[Tikker]

Well, the other argument certainly still holds water. Right now, if you find a corrupt DMV official in Idaho, say, all he can sell you is personal data from people in Idaho. Connect all the state systems into one centralized national system, and he could sell you ANYONE's data.

-Arlos

oh noz, now you have to find 50 corrupt dmz folks

it really doesn't make much difference overall, except now you have 1 set of admin folks looking after the 1 system, instead of 50 sets looking after 50 systems

all the same data will be stolen as much as it ever was, likely in exactly the same manner as now

[Evermore]

Well, the other argument certainly still holds water. Right now, if you find a corrupt DMV official in Idaho, say, all he can sell you is personal data from people in Idaho. Connect all the state systems into one centralized national system, and he could sell you ANYONE's data.

-Arlos

oh noz, now you have to find 50 corrupt dmz folks

it really doesn't make much difference overall, except now you have 1 set of admin folks looking after the 1 system, instead of 50 sets looking after 50 systems

all the same data will be stolen as much as it ever was, likely in exactly the same manner as now

except they will have access to alot more of it.