States revolt against National ID.

[Harrison]

This certainly is a poor argument against it to focus upon.

I'm not for it any more than I am against it at the moment, not until more information is made clear. If it has any chance of going anywhere it will be reformed. So I will reserve judgment until this time.

[Ganzo]

If your only objection to a centralized ID system,m that it might get compromised for criminal purpose, you might as well lock your self in a led box on the bottom of the ocean; that might guarantee some protection from all the what if's. Welcome to the real world Mr. GlassHalfEmpty, shit does happen, but it's not the reason to stop any improvements or innovations to old ways.

And for all GovernmentOutToGetMyFreedom loonies: even if it don't pass now, it will in few years. Everything will get centralized and computerized, cameras will be on every corner, Big Brother will be watching YOU, all in order to give you your FREEDOM to live a normal peaceful life.

[Vinnie.1]

Good evening all...Have any of you ever thought of why our founding fathers carefully worded our constitution...It was to prevent our government from becoming to big for their britches...It's wording was very carefully chosen to gave us the rights as citizens to use checks and balances and correct what is wrong with our government through voting...SO if you don't vote you have no right to complain...Our founding fathers were also paranoid about government and choose to start a democratic society as opposed to a one ruler type of government...Maybe paranoid is not such a bad thing...George Washington hinself was asked if he would consider being King of our newly established country...He declined stating that a one ruler society and the tyranny associated with it was not worth it or what we need or want here...

I agree with Lueyen on all of his points...I also have several of my own against this...The first being that this does take away freedom...It is just a matter of time that all this information being gathered can be broadened to include every little bit of information about a single person including every dirty little secret about ourselves that we all are guilty of having and hiding in the closet and without your knowledge or permission collecting and potentially could be used against you...I don't have anything to hide but I might in the future...Is anyone thinking about that here...I don't see that possibility anywhere in the responses...

The constitution gives us the right to keep and bearer arms...(I take this to mean that if the government has an atomic bomb then I have the right to have one to defend myself against a corrupt government...Not that I would) I am opposed to any thing that limits my rights to do so...A few years back there was a bill that passed banning certian types of weopons...Saturday Night Specials was the term they used to discribe a specific list of guns... A list that they made that they say were used in the majority of violent crimes in which guns were involved...The bill passed...It also had the wording that semimatic gun magazines being sold from that point on to the general public could not hold more than 10 rounds...But wasn't specific about officials of the law or government (This bill did not limit how many rounds a cop could have in a magazine...So guess what...You are now automatically out gunned by the police...There goes a little more of your rights) Am I paranoid here?These guns were outlawed...And to this day not a single crime was stopped or prevented by the passing of this bill...But your rights were greatly infringed upon...Did you care?...Little by little rights are being taken away...And they have you convinced that it is for the better...You have been lied to by our government...And continue to be lied to...Soon if you ever had to or needed to revolt against our government for getting out of control...You are not going to be able to...SO go ahead and back this Central ID idea...You well more that likely look back and say to yourself...What the fuck did I support that for...I'm the one that this mostly has affected and now I can't do anything to change or stop it...

Food for thought...

Vinnie.1

[Evermore]

If your only objection to a centralized ID system,m that it might get compromised for criminal purpose, you might as well lock your self in a led box on the bottom of the ocean; that might guarantee some protection from all the what if's. Welcome to the real world Mr. GlassHalfEmpty, shit does happen, but it's not the reason to stop any improvements or innovations to old ways.

And for all GovernmentOutToGetMyFreedom loonies: even if it don't pass now, it will in few years. Everything will get centralized and computerized, cameras will be on every corner, Big Brother will be watching YOU, all in order to give you your FREEDOM to live a normal peaceful life.

these are not improvements. they cant be by design. the govenment is incapable of improvements because the govenment itself does not work. Lets add the fact this is unconstitutional. This is not my only objection tho it is a big one. You attitude of " its going to happen anyway so why not" is more lunacy then any "GovernmentOutToGetMyFreedom" crap. consider this, this is implemented. Government tracks you comings and goings and spending habits etc and now uses this information to levy new taxes, say on state to state travel for instance. WHat will make you realize this is wrong? when a Cop in a black trench coat walks up to you and says Heil <current president/dictator>, papers please? and then locks you up because your papers are not "in order"?


this general attitude of "government knows whats best for me" is the most assine thing there is. by far.

[Ganzo]

If your only objection to a centralized ID system,m that it might get compromised for criminal purpose, you might as well lock your self in a led box on the bottom of the ocean; that might guarantee some protection from all the what if's. Welcome to the real world Mr. GlassHalfEmpty, shit does happen, but it's not the reason to stop any improvements or innovations to old ways.

And for all GovernmentOutToGetMyFreedom loonies: even if it don't pass now, it will in few years. Everything will get centralized and computerized, cameras will be on every corner, Big Brother will be watching YOU, all in order to give you your FREEDOM to live a normal peaceful life.

these are not improvements. they cant be by design. the govenment is incapable of improvements because the govenment itself does not work. Lets add the fact this is unconstitutional. This is not my only objection tho it is a big one. You attitude of " its going to happen anyway so why not" is more lunacy then any "GovernmentOutToGetMyFreedom" crap. consider this, this is implemented. Government tracks you comings and goings and spending habits etc and now uses this information to levy new taxes, say on state to state travel for instance. WHat will make you realize this is wrong? when a Cop in a black trench coat walks up to you and says Heil <current president/dictator>, papers please? and then locks you up because your papers are not "in order"?


this general attitude of "government knows whats best for me" is the most assine thing there is. by far.

Why reply to what you want me to say instead of what i said?

these are not improvements. they cant be by design. the govenment is incapable of improvements because the govenment itself does not work.

Centralizing a 50 systems into 1 for faster, easier access is an improvement. Saying that government does not work, is just silly, and doesn't deserve a rebuttal. Also I would like to know how it is unconstitutional.

You attitude of " its going to happen anyway so why not" is more lunacy then any "GovernmentOutToGetMyFreedom" crap.

I did not say this was my reason for implementing this. My reason for it, is because it will improve our system. I said it was going to happen anyway, because every day there are more people who understand that system evolves and needs to keep up with times, and less paranoid "freedom fighters"; so eventualy it would get passed.

consider this, this is implemented. Government tracks you comings and goings and spending habits etc and now uses this information to levy new taxes, say on state to state travel for instance. WHat will make you realize this is wrong? when a Cop in a black trench coat walks up to you and says Heil <current president/dictator>, papers please? and then locks you up because your papers are not "in order"?

I couldn't understand most of it, because you were rambling. Form what I got you afraid of new tax implementation. ID system will not affect how new tax laws are passed, it is a separate issue.

this general attitude of "government knows whats best for me" is the most assine thing there is. by far.

I did not say that. But having government having closer watch on criminal activities, allows for more personal freedom.

[Lyion]

this general attitude of "government knows whats best for me" is the most assine thing there is. by far.

Better quit voting Democrat then, since that is their entire platform. Socialized Medicine, Socialized schools, higher taxes, Over regulation, etc

Anyways, we are going off tangent here, and I don't see much truth about these changes being presented, just a lot of 'what ifs'.

[Evermore]

If your only objection to a centralized ID system,m that it might get compromised for criminal purpose, you might as well lock your self in a led box on the bottom of the ocean; that might guarantee some protection from all the what if's. Welcome to the real world Mr. GlassHalfEmpty, shit does happen, but it's not the reason to stop any improvements or innovations to old ways.

And for all GovernmentOutToGetMyFreedom loonies: even if it don't pass now, it will in few years. Everything will get centralized and computerized, cameras will be on every corner, Big Brother will be watching YOU, all in order to give you your FREEDOM to live a normal peaceful life.

these are not improvements. they cant be by design. the govenment is incapable of improvements because the govenment itself does not work. Lets add the fact this is unconstitutional. This is not my only objection tho it is a big one. You attitude of " its going to happen anyway so why not" is more lunacy then any "GovernmentOutToGetMyFreedom" crap. consider this, this is implemented. Government tracks you comings and goings and spending habits etc and now uses this information to levy new taxes, say on state to state travel for instance. WHat will make you realize this is wrong? when a Cop in a black trench coat walks up to you and says Heil <current president/dictator>, papers please? and then locks you up because your papers are not "in order"?


this general attitude of "government knows whats best for me" is the most assine thing there is. by far.

Why reply to what you want me to say instead of what i said?

these are not improvements. they cant be by design. the govenment is incapable of improvements because the govenment itself does not work.

Centralizing a 50 systems into 1 for faster, easier access is an improvement. Saying that government does not work, is just silly, and doesn't deserve a rebuttal. Also I would like to know how it is unconstitutional.

You attitude of " its going to happen anyway so why not" is more lunacy then any "GovernmentOutToGetMyFreedom" crap.

I did not say this was my reason for implementing this. My reason for it, is because it will improve our system. I said it was going to happen anyway, because every day there are more people who understand that system evolves and needs to keep up with times, and less paranoid "freedom fighters"; so eventualy it would get passed.

consider this, this is implemented. Government tracks you comings and goings and spending habits etc and now uses this information to levy new taxes, say on state to state travel for instance. WHat will make you realize this is wrong? when a Cop in a black trench coat walks up to you and says Heil <current president/dictator>, papers please? and then locks you up because your papers are not "in order"?

I couldn't understand most of it, because you were rambling. Form what I got you afraid of new tax implementation. ID system will not affect how new tax laws are passed, it is a separate issue.

this general attitude of "government knows whats best for me" is the most assine thing there is. by far.

I did not say that. But having government having closer watch on criminal activities, allows for more personal freedom.

Honestly Ganz I didnt think you were this short sighted. The realid is not designed for "fighting terrorism" it's designed to establish more control. THis is just like the Social Security numbers and Income Tax. SSN's were originally only supposed to be used to access the SS system. Now they are basically a ID. Income Tax was originally only supposed to be levied on the rich. 5 years after implementation, it's levied on everyone. You saying this wont be used to levy new taxes and for things not mentioned yet is ludacris.

Saying government doesnt work is silly? Face it, the system is broke. The governments answer to everything is to add more on top of a system that already doesnt work, instead of fixing what you have first. Look at it this this way. You got a car but it doesnt run, so lets give it a paint job to make it better. Paint Job is done but the car still doesnt run, so lets pass laws to regulate the paint shops." THIS is what realid is. You want to keep a closer eye on criminal activities? Then stop legislationg the teeth out of what is already in existance and free up the agdencies to do their jobs, dont pass another costly useless law. it justs adds to the broken pile. SO please explain how adding more fuel to the fire is an improvement? how does allowing the government to keep a closer eye on criminal activities allow more personal freedom? All some idiot has to do is decide you are a criminal or make a typo on a form and now YOU become the criminal. You ask me Thomas Jefferson is right.

How is this unconstitutional? besided the FACT the consitution is in place to keep the federal government in check you have this: "any power not granted specifically by the consistution to the federal government is left to the states" No where in the consititution is it stated the feds have the power to create a law like this. The constitution was simply ignored.

RealID is wrong and you can't justify it, no matter how hard you try or what angle you look at it from.

[Evermore]

Good evening all...Have any of you ever thought of why our founding fathers carefully worded our constitution...It was to prevent our government from becoming to big for their britches...It's wording was very carefully chosen to gave us the rights as citizens to use checks and balances and correct what is wrong with our government through voting...SO if you don't vote you have no right to complain...Our founding fathers were also paranoid about government and choose to start a democratic society as opposed to a one ruler type of government...Maybe paranoid is not such a bad thing...George Washington hinself was asked if he would consider being King of our newly established country...He declined stating that a one ruler society and the tyranny associated with it was not worth it or what we need or want here...

I agree with Lueyen on all of his points...I also have several of my own against this...The first being that this does take away freedom...It is just a matter of time that all this information being gathered can be broadened to include every little bit of information about a single person including every dirty little secret about ourselves that we all are guilty of having and hiding in the closet and without your knowledge or permission collecting and potentially could be used against you...I don't have anything to hide but I might in the future...Is anyone thinking about that here...I don't see that possibility anywhere in the responses...

The constitution gives us the right to keep and bearer arms...(I take this to mean that if the government has an atomic bomb then I have the right to have one to defend myself against a corrupt government...Not that I would) I am opposed to any thing that limits my rights to do so...A few years back there was a bill that passed banning certian types of weopons...Saturday Night Specials was the term they used to discribe a specific list of guns... A list that they made that they say were used in the majority of violent crimes in which guns were involved...The bill passed...It also had the wording that semimatic gun magazines being sold from that point on to the general public could not hold more than 10 rounds...But wasn't specific about officials of the law or government (This bill did not limit how many rounds a cop could have in a magazine...So guess what...You are now automatically out gunned by the police...There goes a little more of your rights) Am I paranoid here?These guns were outlawed...And to this day not a single crime was stopped or prevented by the passing of this bill...But your rights were greatly infringed upon...Did you care?...Little by little rights are being taken away...And they have you convinced that it is for the better...You have been lied to by our government...And continue to be lied to...Soon if you ever had to or needed to revolt against our government for getting out of control...You are not going to be able to...SO go ahead and back this Central ID idea...You well more that likely look back and say to yourself...What the fuck did I support that for...I'm the one that this mostly has affected and now I can't do anything to change or stop it...

Food for thought...

Vinnie.1

no vinnie they don't care. the american population has become blind and basically a nation of sheep.

[Evermore]

this general attitude of "government knows whats best for me" is the most assine thing there is. by far.

Better quit voting Democrat then, since that is their entire platform. Socialized Medicine, Socialized schools, higher taxes, Over regulation, etc

Anyways, we are going off tangent here, and I don't see much truth about these changes being presented, just a lot of 'what ifs'.

yea lyion I agree. its like the parties are swapping stances. i just wish the libratarians could put up a viable 2nd choise.

[Ganzo]

I can't have an argument with you Evermore, because you are ignoring everything I say and replying to things you pull out of context, or make up arguments for me, to make your points seem valid.

[Vinnie.1]

Absolute power corrupts absolutely....Lyion...I'll give you a clue...I still have my original Social Security Card issued to me in the 60's...When I applied I was 13 years old...I was then given an official piece of government paper...Across the bottom edge just below my signature is a line that states "FOR SOCIAL SECURITY PURPOSES-NOT FOR IDENTIFICATION"...This was changed somewhere between then and when my first child was born in the mid 70's...By that time you had to have a Social Security card number for each person you declaired as a dependant on taxes...This line was then removed...It became YOUR ID's at that time...When someone asks for my Social Security number for ID I then decline, carefully covering my numbers and pointing out that my Social Security Number IS NOT for Identification...It is still a personal private number that I only have to show to my employer after being hired for tax purposes only and to no one else...I have not and do not use it for ID in any way...

So for your information Lyion Real ID IS a first Step to "Socialized Medicine, Socialized schools, higher taxes, Over regulation, etc" your quote that you most graciously pointed out...You need to open up your eyes and read between the lines...If you want to go through life as a "Blind Sheep" as Evermore stated...So be it...I'll still be one that helps you protect what remaining rights you still have by pointing out new potential government regulations...and possible scenarios of their implentation...

Another case for the books of the enlightened helping the less fortunate...We understand that you cannot overcome your handicap...

Enough said...

Vinnie.1

[Lyion]

this general attitude of "government knows whats best for me" is the most assine thing there is. by far.

Better quit voting Democrat then, since that is their entire platform. Socialized Medicine, Socialized schools, higher taxes, Over regulation, etc

Anyways, we are going off tangent here, and I don't see much truth about these changes being presented, just a lot of 'what ifs'.

yea lyion I agree. its like the parties are swapping stances. i just wish the libratarians could put up a viable 2nd choise.

I just wish we had a valid good third party. I despise the left wing socialists, but equally despise the right wing religious nuts. The Libertarians are unfortunately equally whacko, and not the answer. We need the Bull Moose party to be revived!

I liked the GOP when they were more inline with Goldwater values. Now that they have become Falwellian in scope, I really don't care much for them as a party.

I'm sick of picking the lesser of two evils <weevils?>

[Spazz]

I think everyone is but WE dont really have a choice.

[Arlos]

See, now for the whole, Goldwater is someone I could respect, though I disagreed with him on several issues. He was far too hawkish for my taste, and his unswerving support of McCarthy and the McCarthyist witch-hunts severely diminishes him in my eyes. Still, he himself remarked to Dole near the end of his political career something to the effect of, "Isn't it ironic that you and I are now the liberal wing of the Republican party?" He also preached something I DO agree with, when he said:

When you say “radical right” today, I think of these moneymaking ventures by fellows like Pat Robertson and others who are trying to take the Republican Party and make a religious organization out of it. If that ever happens, kiss politics goodbye.

Rather prescient that comment, eh?

One other quote of his I like, in response to Falwell saying that "Every good Christian should be concerned" about Sandra Day O'Conner's appointment to the supreme court was:

I think every good Christian ought to kick Falwell right in the ass.

Oh, as for universal health care: what makes you think that a system of universal health care for all citizens would remove your ability to choose your own health care provider? If you can still freely choose your own doctor and/or health plan or health care system, but now 60+ million more people are covered, how exactly do you lose, except possibly by paying more taxes? (Oh no, people who can afford it might have to pay more to help poor people. Such a tragedy. Really. Not.) How is it a "Government knows best" situation when you still can freely choose?

As for this ID, I've made several of my reasons for opposition quite clear. To state some of them simply again:

1) I consider this just the first step towards using those IDs as a mechanism of controlling the populace. Big Brother may not be watching us right now, but he sure as hell wants to.

2) I consider them an object that lessens our freedom. As I stated before, right now if you or I or anyone wishes to travel anywhere in this country by bus or by train or as a passenger in a car, we need no ID, no papers of any kind, just cash to pay our way. This law would force us to have and present ID in order to travel and to police at any time, regardless of the circumstances and whether or not we were doing anything wrong.

3) Having even more personal data encoded on the magnetic strip of an ID allows retailers even more access to our information, as they can easily retain that information when they swipe our ID; they do so now.

4) The aforementioned fraud concerns outlined by Leuyen, et al.

5) It doesn't actually DO anything to combat terrorism or even domestic terrorism. Foreign terrorists will have no problem getting fake IDs (if 15 year old high school students can obtain them, terrorists sure as hell can), and people like Tim McVeigh had a valid driver's license, and presumably would have had a valid national ID card as well.

6) I see it as stepping on State's Rights in that they lose the rights to decide their own standards for licenses and IDs, and who can and cannot obtain them. One size does NOT fit all.

7) It forces every DMV clerk to become an immigration expert, to be able to decide complicated legal matters of whether or not someone is or is not eligable for an ID. This becomes even more complicated if someone lacks vital records, such as a birth cirtificate, if those records were lost or destroyed (like what happened to many records in Katrina) or if they're an immigrant from a 3rd world nation that never kept such records to begin with.

8) It will cost 12+ billion dollars that that each state would be forced to pay, thus coming directly out of our own pockets.


So, again, I see a law that gains us no or minimal appreciable benefits, and has a large number of downsides ranging from freedom issues, to fraud, to slippery slope concerns to cost issues. With so little to gain, and so much to lose, I remain adamant in my opposition.

-Arlos

[Vinnie.1]

So maybe you should take the initiative to create a party of your own...In something you believe in...Based on high moral values or the truth or what ever your political stance is...Do not give up when the other parties tear you apart for taking a stance against what is right...That's what it's all about...The right to do as you please...Get others to rally behind you and support your cause...Make them see that your not a flake and stand for the betterment of all...Take on the challenge of being micro-inspected of your past...Every little dirty thing that you ever done be brought out in the media...

If you have the credentials to withstand this kind of mudslinging I guarantee you the people well stand behind and support your cause...The trouble is Few are capible of qualifying for or want to take on this burden...So what we have is what you get...instead of complaining and going along with the norm...Take a position aginst the things that are unjust and see that they are corrected first...The people want to be lead by the best candidate...Unfortunately we have not had good choices for several elections...So we pick from the choices we have...Someone has to do it...This is why some past elections have been so close and divided...There has not been a shinning star for the majority to support...The voting population is trying to find the best solutions...Grasping at straws is not the answer....We need someone with the confidence and ability to lead...Are you that person?...

Vinnie.1

[Lyion]

Vinnie, there are thousands of political parties out there, many with wealthy people behind them. None of them have any clout or power whatsoever.

The Libertarians a few years ago tried en masse to move to a state to try and gain some political capital. It proved to be ultimately fruitless.

I disagree that people want to be led by the best candidate. There is no such thing. People wish to vote with their issues and values. Currently, that's not possible in a two horse race.

I wish someone could figure things out to allow real competition and different parties with real issues and values represented. I just don't see it happening anytime soon due to the power and alliances the GOP and DNC have.

[Vinnie.1]

So change it...

Vinnie.1

[Vinnie.1]

I really get tired of hearing people complain about what the problems are...If there is a real concern to make things better then nothing can change that conviction and they should go forth and at least try to make changes...I haven't heard one person say yet they were working on changing things...Only complaints and debates on whats going on...Who's doing what and what is wrong with our government or someones elses opinions...So if you don't like what's happening...Change it...or at least make the effort...I can truthfully say I have at least tried to get things changed on a much smaller scale...Sometimes successful...Sometimes not...But at least I have tried...

Vinnie.1

[Evermore]

I can't have an argument with you Evermore, because you are ignoring everything I say and replying to things you pull out of context, or make up arguments for me, to make your points seem valid.

sorry you feel that way ganz. I haven't ignored a thing, I have gone past where you stop and identifed the roots of the issue. If that is ignoring you then i guess i did. doesnt make any of the points i started any less valid.

[Evermore]

I really get tired of hearing people complain about what the problems are...If there is a real concern to make things better then nothing can change that conviction and they should go forth and at least try to make changes...I haven't heard one person say yet they were working on changing things...Only complaints and debates on whats going on...Who's doing what and what is wrong with our government or someones elses opinions...So if you don't like what's happening...Change it...or at least make the effort...I can truthfully say I have at least tried to get things changed on a much smaller scale...Sometimes successful...Sometimes not...But at least I have tried...

Vinnie.1

If you have truthfully tried, then you know how much easier said this is then actually done. Personally I am not sure how to proceed from this point.

[Vinnie.1]

There is always a first step to any long journey...The hard part is motivation and determination...

Vinnie.1

[Evermore]

Yes I want to trust these people with all my personal information.

[Tikker]

Yes I want to trust these people with all my personal information.

that's the stupidest fucking arguement ever, evermore

word on the street is that they already have all your info, they're just centralizing it

[Lyion]

They aren't even centralizing it. They are making it easier to interoperate.

Am I getting through? Interoperate. Interoperate! No MCP!

[Harrison]

Yes I want to trust these people with all my personal information.