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Postby kaharthemad » Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:11 pm

arlos wrote:Gulf Streams use significantly less fuel than commercial jets, and not even just because of the size difference. Their engines are a newer design and thus are quieter, less polluting, and more fuel efficient. Also, does Mr. Luddy have a sizeable Secret Service detachment that is required to folow him around? Does the Secret Service let *ANY* ex-president or ex-Vice President fly commercial, due to the security risks? Does Carter? Does Bush Sr.? Not to mention, if he's doing book signings, and media events, something tells me he's stopping at tons of places across the country, and thus Commercial doesn't work very well, just like your beloved Mr Luddy.

Do you know for a fact that geothermal systems are viable in tennessee? The geology of that region is highly different than Texas, after all. Do you have any information in how much power usage Bush Sr. uses, as he's probably the next closest comparison to someone in Gore's position? Hell, do you have actual factual numbers on consumption of W's ranch, beyond general platitudes? Sure it's nice that W was concerned about ecology on his ranch, that definitely earns a kudo from me. Only a small one though, as his policies have systematically worsened the environmental protections that we once enjoyed, making the ecology worse for the rest of us.

You don't like Gore, we get it. He could wear a hair shirt, live in a tar shack like the Unabomber and get to places by riding a donkey, and you'd still find something to bitch about the man, because you don't like his message.

-Arlos



I dont like hypocrites. as for gore SS goons. alot of other presidents and VP's have flown MAC when they needed to go somewhere.

You have no logical argument arlos, we get it. And I think your the only one that does not get it thru you blue brained liberal head, I admire him trying to do something for the enviorment however I believe his stand point would be greatly improved if he was not flying a fucking lear around burning fuel. He has access to mac flights, as well as he has the ability to drive that 'envior-friendly' bus he was driving around in when he visited Ohio last year.

Gulf Streams use significantly less fuel than commercial jets



yeah and a H3 takes up less gas then an H2. both are gas hogs.

remember 6000 gallons of fuel to make it half way to the coast.
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Postby Tikker » Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:31 pm

Lyion wrote:Nobody in this thread said it wasn't. We merely said Al was a hypocrite, which you either agree with or don't.

I have no issues with his energy consumption or his lifestyle. I do believe he might be a bit more credible pushing energy conservation if he set the example, versus a "do as I say, not as I do" attitude.


The point you guys keep missing is you're calling him a hypocrite because his lifestyle consumes more stuff than Joe Blow's does

which as lots have pointed out is a stupid fucking arguement
feel free to compare him to multiple ex-presidents/VP's doing roughly the same lifestyle then you have a valid comparison

of course a globetrotter is going to have a bigger carbon footprint

no fucking shit

but as a globetrotter, how does his footprint compare to others? doing his job as he does it requires certain things. does he do it in a more green way than others doing the same job?


get back to me when you have some actual data rather than "hurrr, i <3 Dubya, I h8 Gore"
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Postby Lyion » Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:06 pm

kaharthemad wrote:I dont like hypocrites. as for gore SS goons. alot of other presidents and VP's have flown MAC when they needed to go somewhere.

You have no logical argument arlos, we get it. And I think your the only one that does not get it thru you blue brained liberal head, I admire him trying to do something for the enviorment however I believe his stand point would be greatly improved if he was not flying a fucking lear around burning fuel. He has access to mac flights, as well as he has the ability to drive that 'envior-friendly' bus he was driving around in when he visited Ohio last year.


Yup, too bad some won't read past Gore Good, Bush Bad! Which has nothing to do with the overall point here.
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Postby Tikker » Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:16 pm

lyion wrote:
kaharthemad wrote:I dont like hypocrites. as for gore SS goons. alot of other presidents and VP's have flown MAC when they needed to go somewhere.

You have no logical argument arlos, we get it. And I think your the only one that does not get it thru you blue brained liberal head, I admire him trying to do something for the enviorment however I believe his stand point would be greatly improved if he was not flying a fucking lear around burning fuel. He has access to mac flights, as well as he has the ability to drive that 'envior-friendly' bus he was driving around in when he visited Ohio last year.


Yup, too bad some won't read past Gore Good, Bush Bad! Which has nothing to do with the overall point here.


you don't have a valid point tho!

ps, since they're both american they're just different flavours of bad, omg
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Postby Zanchief » Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:23 pm

lyion wrote:Yup, too bad some won't read past Gore Good, Bush Bad!


Agreed, like the OP.
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Postby Evermore » Wed Feb 28, 2007 7:27 am

The point you guys keep missing is you're calling him a hypocrite because his lifestyle consumes more stuff than Joe Blow's does

which as lots have pointed out is a stupid fucking arguement
feel free to compare him to multiple ex-presidents/VP's doing roughly the same lifestyle then you have a valid comparison




this is correct.
Last edited by Evermore on Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Lyion » Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:28 am

Since he's leading the conservation charge, and asking everyone to buy smaller houses, smaller cars, and use less energy, shouldn't he set the example.. Or because he's a rich and powerful dude, it's ok for him to ignore what he is preaching, and just tell everyone else to do as he says.

People keep repeating over and over he uses the average of his demographic of rich bloated white guys.. But keep ignoring over and over he is trying to get people to use less energy and other fat rich white dudes aren't trying to lead in conservation or green matters.

It's like Rosie O'Donnell leading a campaign to make everyone eat healthy while driving through McDonalds three times a day. The comedy is the amount of people defending the hypocrisy with complete non sequitur statements. A lil objectivitiy would be nice!

Al wants everyone to cut down consumption.. Shouldn't he be leading by example? Regardless of the average of wasteful rich people's homes, Al is at the top tier of energy usage while trying to get everyone else to scale back.

Anyways, simple question for all the Gore defenders: If Al thinks this is so hugely cataclysmic and world shaking and every person should make sacrifices, and is promoting his views of the morality of conservation, why isn't he in a smaller house using less energy?
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Postby 10sun » Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:39 am

lyion wrote:Anyways, simple question for all the Gore defenders: If Al thinks this is so hugely cataclysmic and world shaking and every person should make sacrifices, and is promoting his views of the morality of conservation, why isn't he in a smaller house using less energy?


Where does he do most of his work outside of lobbying?

I am really not certain, but I would be willing to bet that he does a lot of it at home and that is where his office is as well.

Should people who own dual purpose properties drop their office down to just one room? or should they just get out there and buy an office to conduct their business as well keeping a home?
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Postby Lyion » Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:46 am

Which has nothing to do with the correlation between his push for conservation by everyone and the fact he uses a vast amount of electricity and gas, and ignores his own dire warnings.

Perhaps instead of a 20 room mansion wasting assloads of power and water, he could take his que from others who seem to do ok with smaller actual real Eco friendly abodes.

The 4,000-square-foot house is a model of environmental rectitude

Geothermal heat pumps located in a central closet circulate water through pipes buried 300 feet deep in the ground where the temperature is a constant 67 degrees; the water heats the house in the winter and cools it in the summer. Systems such as the one in this "eco-friendly" dwelling use about 25% of the electricity that traditional heating and cooling systems utilize.

A 25,000-gallon underground cistern collects rainwater gathered from roof runs; wastewater from sinks, toilets and showers goes into underground purifying tanks and is also funneled into the cistern. The water from the cistern is used to irrigate the landscaping surrounding the four-bedroom home. Plants and flowers native to the high prairie area blend the structure into the surrounding ecosystem.

No, this is not the home of some eccentrically wealthy eco-freak trying to shame his fellow citizens into following the pristineness of his self-righteous example. And no, it is not the wilderness retreat of the Sierra Club or the Natural Resources Defense Council, a haven where tree-huggers plot political strategy.

This is President George W. Bush's "Texas White House" outside the small town of Crawford.
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Postby Zanchief » Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:46 am

25% of a conventional house of that size, not 25% of a normal 2 bedroom. Gore's house, which is obviously eco-friendly as well, might even consume less the Ws. Provide some numbers or STFU.
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Postby 10sun » Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:10 am

lyion wrote:Which has nothing to do with the correlation between his push for conservation by everyone and the fact he uses a vast amount of electricity and gas, and ignores his own dire warnings.

Perhaps instead of a 20 room mansion wasting assloads of power and water, he could take his que from others who seem to do ok with smaller actual real Eco friendly abodes.

The 4,000-square-foot house is a model of environmental rectitude

Geothermal heat pumps located in a central closet circulate water through pipes buried 300 feet deep in the ground where the temperature is a constant 67 degrees; the water heats the house in the winter and cools it in the summer. Systems such as the one in this "eco-friendly" dwelling use about 25% of the electricity that traditional heating and cooling systems utilize.

A 25,000-gallon underground cistern collects rainwater gathered from roof runs; wastewater from sinks, toilets and showers goes into underground purifying tanks and is also funneled into the cistern. The water from the cistern is used to irrigate the landscaping surrounding the four-bedroom home. Plants and flowers native to the high prairie area blend the structure into the surrounding ecosystem.

No, this is not the home of some eccentrically wealthy eco-freak trying to shame his fellow citizens into following the pristineness of his self-righteous example. And no, it is not the wilderness retreat of the Sierra Club or the Natural Resources Defense Council, a haven where tree-huggers plot political strategy.

This is President George W. Bush's "Texas White House" outside the small town of Crawford.


It does have something to do with what I just said, the guy most likely conducts a fair amount of business from his own home.

On your quote, I think that George W's house is what needs to be done more often... although rural housing is not where most of the problems lay in this world.

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Postby Martrae » Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:22 am

Zanchief wrote:25% of a conventional house of that size, not 25% of a normal 2 bedroom. Gore's house, which is obviously eco-friendly as well, might even consume less the Ws. Provide some numbers or STFU.


WTF do you guys keep getting 2 bedroom houses? 2 bedroom houses are NOT the norm in the US.
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Postby Zanchief » Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:49 am

Are you teaching your kids real-estate this week, Marty?
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Postby Martrae » Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:55 am

Not this week, no.

Just curious where you get the 2 bedroom thing from....
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Postby Zanchief » Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:58 am

You can fit a whole lot more town-houses in an area then singles. I think you'd be surprised what the average house size is.

I of course know absolutely nothing about American real-estate. I'm just speculating, but it really has nothing to do with the argument.
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Postby Tikker » Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:09 am

Martrae wrote:
Zanchief wrote:25% of a conventional house of that size, not 25% of a normal 2 bedroom. Gore's house, which is obviously eco-friendly as well, might even consume less the Ws. Provide some numbers or STFU.


WTF do you guys keep getting 2 bedroom houses? 2 bedroom houses are NOT the norm in the US.


quick, show us the stats for what the average american house is
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Postby Tikker » Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:12 am

lyion wrote:

Anyways, simple question for all the Gore defenders: If Al thinks this is so hugely cataclysmic and world shaking and every person should make sacrifices, and is promoting his views of the morality of conservation, why isn't he in a smaller house using less energy?


You don't get elected in the US unless you're a rich dude living fat off the land

No one's debating that he's using way more power/energy/etc than joe blow
this has been conceeded a jillion times, so stfu about it

for someone in his position, he has to maintain certain things(right or wrong, it's your american way~)

is he doing it in greener way than others in his position?

now quit dodging that question~
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Postby Martrae » Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:04 pm

Tikker wrote:
Martrae wrote:
Zanchief wrote:25% of a conventional house of that size, not 25% of a normal 2 bedroom. Gore's house, which is obviously eco-friendly as well, might even consume less the Ws. Provide some numbers or STFU.


WTF do you guys keep getting 2 bedroom houses? 2 bedroom houses are NOT the norm in the US.


quick, show us the stats for what the average american house is


The plurality of housing units, 40%, has three bedrooms.

We don't do as many townhouses here. Most houses are detached.
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Postby Arlos » Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:08 pm

Well, here, given housing prices, 1 bedroom lofts and condos are VERY common. Hell, most 1 bedroom "condos" are really just like 1 bedroom apartments you buy and then pay association fees monthly.

So, those numbers are going to be skewed depending on where you are. More rural areas, sure, I can see 3BR being the norm. Urban areas, especially major cities, not so much.

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Postby Martrae » Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:11 pm

I was using national averages.

I also, personally, don't consider a townhouse or a condo a 'house'. Houses are detached. Condos and townhouses aren't. :)
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Postby Arlos » Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:13 pm

We have a lot of duplexes that are also called Condos. The entire building is detached, but 2 units share a common wall.

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Postby Zanchief » Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:14 pm

Townhouse~
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Postby Lyion » Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:43 pm

Weren't you praising the gulfstream? Yet more hypocrisy. Gotta love it.

Sen. Dianne Feinstein offers plenty of tips on how California households can combat global warming, such as carpooling and running only a full dishwasher.

But one bit of information Feinstein declines to share is the number of times that she flew last year on her husband's Gulfstream jet, which burns much more fuel per passenger-mile than commercial airliners.

Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger also has asked constituents to do their part to conserve energy — including cutting summertime power consumption — even though he takes to the skies on leased executive jets.

Aides say there is nothing contradictory between the pro-green pronouncements and the flying habits of the Democratic senator and Republican governor.

Some environmentalists aren't so sure.

"There appears to be a discrepancy between calling on people to make personal reductions and using a private jet that exacerbates the problem," Clean Air Watch President Frank O'Donnell said.

Flying on a Gulfstream rather than an airliner is like driving a sport utility vehicle instead of riding a bus, O'Donnell and others say.

A single cross-country round trip on a Gulfstream IV, or GIV, the model owned by Feinstein's husband, churns out about 83,000 to 90,000 pounds of carbon dioxide, experts say. By contrast, on a per capita basis, the average American produces 50,000 pounds from all activities in an entire year.

Nonetheless, Feinstein and Schwarzenegger intend to continue their noncommercial flying ways because their jobs demand a flexibility the airlines can't match, spokesmen say.

Schwarzenegger's office said he and a jet-leasing company are establishing a "carbon offset" program for the governor and fellow customers, retroactive to Jan. 1. Carbon offsets are bought from organizations that plant trees and support renewable energy enterprises, among other measures, to offset greenhouse gases produced by the buyers.

"This is big news," Schwarzenegger spokesman Bill Maile said of the governor's undertaking with NetJets, the leasing firm.

Feinstein, however, got the jump on Schwarzenegger. She began buying carbon offsets last year to partially cover the travel on the GIV, and will purchase enough offsets this year to compensate for all the trips, spokesman Scott Gerber said.

He added that Feinstein took "numerous" commercial flights in 2006, but flew mostly on the GIV. He balked at disclosing the tally of her Gulfstream journeys.

"We're not going to get into specifics," he said.

Noncommercial aircraft and other carbon-related indulgences have caused politicians considerable turbulence recently.

A conservative group has condemned Al Gore for racking up an average monthly electricity bill of $1,200 at his Nashville mansion last year while championing the anti-global warming cause. A Gore spokeswoman said the former vice president invests in renewable energy to offset his electricity use.

As part of an ethics push, the House and Senate are toughening restrictions on lawmakers who fly private jets, though exceptions for members and spouses who own planes are under consideration.

Earlier this month, Republicans accused House Speaker Nancy Pelosi of requesting a large military jet to fly her and family members between the capital and her San Francisco district.

Security protocols grant Pelosi occasional military flights because she is second in line to the presidency. Her office said she had only inquired about an aircraft with enough fuel capacity to make the trip nonstop, and would fly commercial if necessary.

Pelosi flew on private jets seven times in 2006, her spokesman said. "She made every effort to travel commercially whenever possible," Drew Hammill said.

Sen. Barbara Boxer says she took four trips on private aircraft last year, one with multiple stops over 2 1/2 days.

"If you can take a commercial plane to get where you need to go at the time you need to be there, you should do it," she said in an e-mail. "If not, you have to look at alternatives such as trains, fuel-efficient vehicles, buses, and in some cases, private planes."


For that last option, Feinstein reimburses her husband, Richard Blum, for use of the jet, Gerber said. Blum bought the GIV for about $23 million in 1999. The reimbursements are based on a first-class commercial fare, with more than 90% of the money coming from Feinstein's personal funds and the rest from campaign coffers, the spokesman said. Last year, the reimbursements to Blum totaled about $73,000, he said.

But a GIV's operating expenses are much higher than a first-class booking. A round-trip Los Angeles-Washington flight on the Gulfstream burns about 4,500 to 5,000 gallons of fuel at a cost of roughly $20,000, depending on local pump prices, said Jeff Beck, a veteran corporate pilot. And that doesn't include pilot fees, maintenance and parking bills.

"It's the least environmental thing that politicians can do," Beck said. He said Gulfstreams devour so much fossil fuel per passenger that "it's like they're throwing dinosaur bones out of the tailpipe."

A coast-to-coast, first-class ticket on a major airline goes for about $1,200 to $2,500, round trip, according to a sampling of three airlines' prices Tuesday.

A Boeing 767-200 airliner burns about 1,550 gallons an hour — three times as much as a GIV. But the larger plane typically can seat about 180 passengers, as opposed to a GIV's 12 to 14.

Eric Carlson, executive director of Carbonfund.org, a nonprofit that sells offsets, said it would charge $229 to cover the emissions from the GIV round trip.

Schwarzenegger flies a variety of leased jets, which cost his campaign $733,000 during the three months ending last September. Maile said the governor digs into his own pockets for some flights.

He also said Schwarzenegger has converted one of his Hummers to biodiesel fuel, and plans to install solar panels on his house. His other three Hummers remain gas hogs.

For her part, Feinstein drives a hybrid Lexus sport utility vehicle when she is home in San Francisco, Gerber said. But she drives a Lincoln Town Car in Washington.

Not that the eco-crowd is eager to criticize Feinstein and Schwarzenegger, who are generally viewed as key supporters of the growing movement to curb emissions.

Representatives of some environmental groups either would not comment on the two politicians' penchant for private jets, or suggested that allowances could be made in their circumstances.

"Given the exigencies of the campaign trail, if not the demands of governing of a large state, it may not be realistic to expect elective officials to fly commercial all the time," said Jon Coifman, spokesman for the Natural Resources Defense Council.

But O'Donnell, of Clean Air Watch, invoked a loftier ideal:

"It is fair to hope that our political leaders will lead by example."


*paul.pringle@latimes.com
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Postby Zanchief » Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:54 pm

Now we're comparing private jets to commercial airliners?
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Postby Lyion » Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:56 pm

Hy
po
cri
sy

Are you doing your part, Zanchief? Service guarantees citizenship.
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