Hey Lyion, about those civil liberties things...

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Hey Lyion, about those civil liberties things...

Postby Arlos » Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:36 pm

Wonder if this shakes your oh-so righteous confidence that the Government would NEVER misuse it's ability to obtain information about its citizens without proper judicial oversight...

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The FBI is guilty of "serious misuse" of the power to secretly obtain private information under the Patriot Act, a government audit said Friday.

The Justice Department's inspector general looked at the FBI's use of national security letters (NSLs), in which agents demand personal and business information about individuals -- such as financial, phone, and Internet records -- without court orders.

The audit found the letters were issued without proper authority, cited incorrect statutes or obtained information they weren't supposed to.

As many as 22 percent of national security letters were not recorded, the audit said.

"We concluded that many of the problems we identified constituted serious misuse of the FBI's national security letter authorities," Inspector General Glenn A. Fine said in the report.

The audit said there were no indications that the FBI's use of the letters "constituted criminal misconduct."

The FBI has made as many as 56,000 requests a year for information using the letters since the Patriot Act was passed in October, 2001, the audit found.

A single letter can contain multiple information requests, and multiple letters may target one individual.

The audit found that in 2004 and 2005, more than half of the targets of the national security letters were U.S. citizens.
Letter used to track phone calls, FBI says

FBI Director Robert Mueller said Friday that 90 percent of the letters are used to access phone records in helping to track U.S. contacts with suspected terrorists overseas.

Mueller took responsibility for the FBI's problems and said steps had been taken to eliminate them.

"I am to be held accountable," he said, for failing to provide the proper guidelines, training and tools for agents working with the national security letters.

The inspector general's review identified "26 possible intelligence violations" between 2003 and 2005, 19 of which the FBI reported to the president's Intelligence Oversight Board, the audit said.

Of the 26, "22 were the result of FBI errors, while four were caused by mistakes made by recipients of the NSLs," it said.

The audit also found problems with "exigent letters," which are supposed to be used only in emergencies when time may not permit the NSL procedure to be followed.

The audit found exigent letters were not used in emergencies and gave the agency access to telephone records it should not have had.

Mueller said Friday the FBI stopped using exigent letters in May 2006 after the practice was revealed. He said they were used to obtain information the FBI was entitled to but should have gained in other ways.
Use of letters grew after 9/11 attacks

Most of the 200-page report focuses on the national security letters, the use of which it says has undergone a "dramatic increase" since the Patriot Act was put into law after the September 11, 2001, attacks.

The letters existed before the attacks, but the Patriot Act allowed them to be used on a broader scale to seek more information.

The American Civil Liberties Union called on Congress to "act immediately to repeal these dangerous Patriot Act provisions."

Attorney General Alberto Gonzales wrote Fine, praising the report and saying he has asked the Justice Department's National Security Division and the Privacy and Civil Liberties Office to work with the FBI in making changes.

"They will report to me regularly on their progress," Gonzales said. "In addition, I ask that you report to me in four months on the implementation of your recommendations."

Mueller said the national security letters are indispensable in the the war on terror, saying that the recent arrest on espionage charges of a former U.S. Navy sailor in Arizona as one instance where they were needed.

The FBI director said no one has suffered harm from the errors made in use of the letters.

On Capitol Hill, the audit brought calls for better oversight and possibly changes in the law.

"There will be oversight hearings," said Sen. Arlen Specter, R-Pennsylvania. He said the Patriot Act may have to be changed and power given the FBI curtailed because "they appear not to be able to know how to use it."

"You cannot have people act as free agents on something where they are going to be delving into your privacy," Sen. Patrick Leahy, D-Vermont, said. "We all want to stop terrorists. We all want to stop criminals. But the FBI work for us, the American people, not the other way around."



And gee, you wonder why I have an issue with warrantless wiretaps with no judicial oversight...

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Postby Thon » Sat Mar 10, 2007 9:53 am

*gasp*, never saw this coming

hopefully some heads will roll and the patriot act will get pruned.
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Postby Arlos » Sat Mar 10, 2007 11:47 am

I find it amusing that Lyion, for all his pious protestations that our civil liberties were entirely safe under the Patiot act, and that there was nothing to worry about has had nothing to say on this issue. "Lots of oversight" my ass.

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Postby Spazz » Sat Mar 10, 2007 11:54 am

Hes had plenty to say on this over the years. NUH UH and prove it are the 2 I can think i can recall him saying. If the f.b.i is looking into someone they are prolly a criminal anyway and dont deserve the protection of rights.



P.s. If you dont have anything to hide you odnt have anything to worry about. :jerkit:
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Postby Lyion » Sat Mar 10, 2007 2:05 pm

I didn't know I had righteous confidence in the Government? I'm the one against socialist teachers unions, big government, funded bloated health care, and other government controlled entities. You are for all those, if memory serves.

I'm glad this is being audited. The system, in some regards, works as this shows. However, that doesn't change the fact I'm for less government.

We generally disagree solely on needing court orders to intercept US calls to and from Terrorist Hotspots in the Middle East. We still, and probably always will.

Also, just so we're clear, people in the FBI are not APPOINTED. They are not part of the Bush Administration. They broke the rules, and were audited and found out and reprimanded by Justice.

This was the FBI not following the law, although I'm sure in some bizarre otherworldly logic it'll be blamed on the White House, despite the fact the Inspector General, i.e. part of the Administration, are the ones who caught it.
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Postby Yamori » Sat Mar 10, 2007 3:46 pm

This was the FBI not following the law, although I'm sure in some bizarre otherworldly logic it'll be blamed on the White House, despite the fact the Inspector General, i.e. part of the Administration, are the ones who caught it.


They were (ab)using the new framework given to them via the patriot act. This has EVERYTHING to do with the current administration regardless of the fact it was done by FBI personel. Which is precisely the point here - in a new atmosphere of fast, 'secret' warrants with less accountability and less transparency in the process, stuff like this can and will happen.
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Postby Arlos » Sat Mar 10, 2007 6:00 pm

People who work in the NSA aren't appointed either. Why should I trust them any better to not abuse their access to confidential information about citizens that they're only otherwise supposed to have access to via the oversight of a court order? Those FBI agents had no judicial oversight of their new powers, and they abused them. Why should I believe that the NSA personnel are any less prone to abuse, simply because they belong to a different 3-letter agency?

That's the ultimate point: The FBI has proven that you cannot give any governmental agency unsupervised access to people's confidential information, because if you do, it will get abused. Yes, I know it got caught eventually. After how many years and how many egregious civil liberties violations? How many violations have there been at the NSA, that just haven't been caught yet?

As for blaming the Bush adminstration, yes, I do, because the rules/culture/etc that allowed this to take place come directly from one place: the white house. That's where the patriot act came from, and that's who got theh whole inglorious mess pushed through their tame congress. So yes, I blame the Bush administration. No, they didn't personally do these things, but it is their fault the conditions were such that they COULD happen.

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Postby Lyion » Sat Mar 10, 2007 7:03 pm

The laws come from legislation passed by Congress. I know in your mind Emperor Bush passes legislation, controls all the courts, and has his whim, but the truth is that he merely runs the Executive Branch. He has no control of the FBI or the NSA, and IG in Justice are the ones reigning them in. Congress also has oversight. Thus, the Dems can get anything they want from the Executive branch in this manner.

It's the same with any law enforcement or intelligence agency, even the ones Sandy Burglar goes into and REALLY violates laws shredding real critical docs that nobody in the media seems to mind.

But it's all Bushitler. And Rove. Can't forget Rove. He's personally watching you!

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Postby Arlos » Sat Mar 10, 2007 7:32 pm

Yes, Congress passes the legislation. Who argued that? But the white house wrote it, gave it to their completely tame members of congress, who dutifully passed it EXACTLY like the white house wanted. So no, the white house didn't pass it, but theirs was the pen that WROTE it.

And honestly, I don't care *WHO* controls the intelligence agencies, that's irrelevant to this argument. *REGARDLESS* of who controls them, if they are given the power to access confidential information without immediate oversight, they will ABUSE THAT POWER.

We have proof of that from the FBI. Is there any reason to believe the NSA will or has acted any differently, given the same oversight conditions?

THAT is the point, that NO ONE should have that power. EVERYONE should require oversight. When they haven't had it, it was misused. That's the underlying issue. You're trying to obfuscate that by bringing up stuff no one has talked about, like Karl Rove, etc. I blame the White House, and the Republicans in Congress, for creating the situation where acts like this can happen, not for the actual acts themselves, as they obviously didn't personally commit them.

But it is proof that giving ANYONE, FBI OR NSA freedom to violate our civil liberties without judicial oversight is a historically bad idea.

To sum up:

1) Government Agency (FBI) gained the power to access confidential information without judicial oversight.

2) As soon as they got access to that power, they started abusing it.

3) The NSA has also gained the power to access confidential information without judicial oversight.

4) We have no reason to believe that the NSA is any less likely to abuse that new power than the FBI was.

Ergo,

5) Since we know by #2 that governmental agencies cannot be trusted with that power, therefore NO government agency should have that power due to the potential for abuse and misuse. QED.

It's just that simple.

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Postby Lyion » Sat Mar 10, 2007 8:21 pm

The whole point here is the authority given was IMPROPERLY used by the FBI. There are rules in place. They were broken.

It's no different than if we give a cop a gun, and he decides to start shooting non threatening targets with it.

Both are misuses of authority. Should we remove guns from all cops? If that's what you want, attempt to legislate it, just the same as your DNC people now can try to legislate any changes they want.

I understand you want to severely hamstring all government organizations and scrap The Patriot Act. However, it's odd you blame the White House for a group NOT following the rules that Congress put in place. Also, nothing is passed in Congress without bipartisan support. It's that whole 60 person filibuster thing, remember, so it isn't and never has been the rubber stamp you pretend it is.

Personally, I think the FBI director should be fired. This is a pretty big screw up by them, and he did say he'd accept accountability.

The thing is the FBI exceeded it's authority and was properly slapped. It's debatable whether the man responsible should resign. That'd be Mr Mueller, the FBI directory. Sorry it wasn't Mr. Bush despite your bizarre tangent of FBI wrongdoings to the White house and legislation you disagree with. The Inspector General in the DOJ are the ones who found this out and are making them obey the law.

NY Times wrote:Bipartisan outrage erupted on Friday on Capitol Hill as Robert S. Mueller III, the F.B.I. director, conceded that the bureau had improperly used the USA Patriot Act to obtain information about people and businesses.

Mr. Mueller embraced responsibility for the lapses, detailed in a report by the inspector general of the Justice Department, and promised to do everything he could to avoid repeating them. But his apologies failed to defuse the anger of lawmakers in both parties.

“How could this happen?” Mr. Mueller asked rhetorically in a briefing at the headquarters of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. “Who is to be held accountable? And the answer to that is I am to be held accountable.”

The report found many instances when national security letters, which allow the bureau to obtain records from telephone companies, Internet service providers, banks, credit companies and other businesses without a judge’s approval, were improperly, and sometimes illegally, used.

Moreover, record keeping was so slipshod, the report found, that the actual number of national security letters exercised was often understated when the bureau reported on them to Congress, as required.
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Postby Arlos » Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:26 pm

Yes, I know they broke the rules. Cops on the street have oversight in how they use their firearms. They have to fill out long reports pretty much any time they take it out of the holster while they're on duty, and sure as hell do any time it's fired. All of which is to make sure they're not abusing their power.

Supposedly there was "oversight" at the FBI too. Where was it? It certainly wasn't the direct oversight that occurs when all such requrests have to go through the judicial branch and be approved and vetted. THAT is the issue. They had no DIRECT and IMMEDIATE oversight, like called for by the FISA statute in the case of the NSA, or their immediate superior officers in the case of a cop with a gun. How long was the malfeasance going on at the FBI before it was detected? How long? What GUARANTEES do you have that similar malfeasance has NEVER occured in the NSA?

Ultimately, it's somewhat moot, as the administration has already backed off its warrantless wiretapping stance, and they are, to my understanding, all being reviewed now by judicial panels with proper security clearance, which is what I was after to begin with.

As for "requiring" bipartisan support, obviously you've been watching Bizzaro-World congress, as I've seen a great deal of legislation pass that had ZERO support from Democrats while the republicans controlled both houses. You can't filibuster everything. Hell, even when they DID filibuster things, like some of Bush's more egregious judicial nominees, the Republicans got so pissy over it, they threatened to do away with filibusters entirely, despite the 100+ year tradition of their use by the minority party to prevent tyranny of the majority.

On one thing we agree, that the FBI director should be fired. Not allowed to resign, shitcanned, immediately.

Ultimately, the thing is, I consider personal liberty and freedom far too valuable to exchange it for some nebulous "security", especially when there's no guarantee that what we're giving up gains us any of that security. Warrantless wiretaps, and the ability to obtain confidential personal information without warrants is a violation of our right to privacy, and cannot and indeed, MUST NOT be allowed, regardless of circumstance. Period. I refuse to be ruled by fear.

Obviously, you feel civil liberties and personal freedoms are things to be tossed aside willy-nilly any time we're frightened of something. You have every right to your opinion, no matter how misguided it may be. Fortunately, those with opinions similar to yours are now in the minority, and such unchecked government power to intrude on citizen's private lives is being reined in. As it should be.

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Postby dammuzis » Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:02 am

anyone who is a libertarian as lyion claims to be, is against warrantless wiretapping

now that there is other stuff comming out of the woodwork (alberto gonzales playing politics with attorney generals) maybe he will be fired or at the very least forced to resign (i would of shitcanned him after the remark on us citizens not having the right of habeus corpus)

imho the president and every single member of congress who signed the patriot act is guilty of treason
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Postby Lyion » Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:23 am

I never claimed to be a full on libertarian. That'd be Kahar and others here. I have my own specific views and beliefs that I adhere to for many reasons.

I am personally against wireless wiretapping, EXCEPT if its a call to AFGHANISTAN or IRAQ to a KNOWN TERRORIST hideout. I'm glad Justice came down on the CIA for breaking the rules. Oversight should be deep and well seated in regards to anything that has the potential to spill over into America.

I'd also get the full story on the Federal Prosecutors. They are political appointees who serve at the pleasure of the White House and can be removed at any time for no reason, as Clinton did when he fired all of them in 1992.
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Postby Tacks » Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:29 am

NSA IS WATCHING YOU POST ON NT RIGHT NOW, YOU ARE FUCKED
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Postby Durothil Skyreaver » Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:36 am

Tacks wrote:NSA IS WATCHING YOU POST ON NT RIGHT NOW, YOU ARE FUCKED


Now that would be hilarious.
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Postby Evermore » Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:36 am

Tacks wrote:NSA IS WATCHING YOU POST ON NT RIGHT NOW, YOU ARE FUCKED


Jason Bourne is comming...
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