Iraq war

[Phlegm]

It is now 4 years and still going.

Here are a few quotes from George Bush concerning the war.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/3/19/112850/207

[Evermore]

bush is a fucking lunatic

[kaharthemad]

"The main plank in the National Socialist program is to abolish the liberalistic concept of the individual and the Marxist concept of humanity and to substitute for them the folk community, rooted in the soil and bound together by the bond of its common blood." [Adolph Hitler, quoted in Hitler, A Study in Tyranny, by Alan Bullock (Harper Collins, NY)]

"We must stop thinking of the individual and start thinking about what is best for society." [Hillary Clinton, 1993]

"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans ..." [President Bill Clinton, 'USA Today' March 11, 1993: Page 2A]

"I'm not going to have some reporters pawing through our papers. We are the president." [Hillary Clinton commenting on the release of subpoenaed documents ]

yeah was thinking the same thing about the Clintons.

[Zanchief]

yeah was thinking the same thing about the Clintons.

What does that have to do with anything?

Would you like to provide a context to those quotes or are you just going to act like a child having a tantrum?

[Darcler]

MY PARTY IS THE BESTEST, YOUR PARTY IS STUPID!

I laugh when things turn into Clinton v. Bush.

[Evermore]

dont blame u. especially since this has nothing to do with the Bill and Commisar Hillary

[kaharthemad]

hmmm...seems like a struck a nerve. I think context is pretty much self explanatory.


While we are on the subject...

Active duty deaths during Clinton's first four years (1993 - 1996): 4,417
Active duty deaths during Bush's war (2003-2007): (as of 3-2-2007) 3386


What exactly did Clinton do with the 4417 lives he spent?

the context is quite simple you all jump onto dailykos and scream of trumped up charges and how evil this admin is. However one thing you need to remember is they are no different then the last and no different then the one coming in.

[kaharthemad]

bah damn work connection.

[Soulslicer]

While we are on the subject...

Active duty deaths during Clinton's first four years (1993 - 1996): 4,417
Active duty deaths during Bush's war (2003-2007): (as of 3-2-2007) 3386

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL32492.pdf


Active duty deaths during Clinton's first four years (1993 - 1996): 4302

Active duty deaths during Bush's first four years (2001 - 2004): 5187

[Jay]

I think you missed the 5187 deaths during the first term of Bush's presidency. Also, most of the deaths during Clinton's presidency were accidental, as are most military deaths since 1980.

Sources

http://forums.the-dispatch.com/eve/foru ... 8321021606 (First term death count)

http://www.murdoconline.net/archives/003564.html (Casualty figures from 1980-2004)

http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/008312.php (A graph of causes of military active duty death from 1980-2004)

All of that is besides the point. 1 death is still an outrage imo for the reasons that GWB has our soldiers over there for. It's bullshit and there's a reason Clinton's approval rating was 65% while GWB's is lingering around 33%.

[araby]

It doesn't matter whether or not Clinton was a democratic president. what matters, is that he did a great job with the deficit, thinking about this country and the GNP. the only thing that matters to me is whether or not someone is thinking about themselves/party or the entire country and how to move forward without that meaning "let's make a lot of money."

this country cannot afford to go to war.
cannot afford to increase its spending.
cannot afford to run businesses based on making more, more and more money for themselves without giving to the people that keep them running.
the value of our dollar HAS to have a limit.
this country cannot afford to lose it's freedom over terrorists who plainly stated that we cannot do anything to possibly hurt them-they can just kill themselves!

we are not productive in our thinking and growth as individuals and a country that is peaceful and free.

we cannot win wars. wars are not won. they are lost on both sides. the death of americans and middle-easterners were too many when one died.

the loss of human life is tragic, negative and this war has done nothing but promote negative feelings throughout the country and the world, I'm sure.

we must use negotiation where it is possible. is it possible to use negotiation with terrorists? probably not, I don't know-but I don't think that issue has anything to do with Iraq.

Any disagreement or problem with other countries such as Iraq and Afghanistan have to be approached with productive thoughts and a good attitude that searches for a solution that can benefit everyone involved. Negotiations. Talking. Debating on an intellectual level. Listening to each other's ideas.

this is the kind of leader I want. Not one that wants a cheerleading section after he says something really ridiculous like "we're going to war in Iraq!"

[Arlos]

Donald Trump's opinion on Bush & the war: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a30rJQbDDno


Now, I am not what you'd call a fan of The Donald.

But, I think you'd have a pretty hard time convincing anyone that Trump is in any way a raving liberal. So, when he says that Bush is the worst president ever.... ouch.

So hey, Lyion et al is always on me to say when a conservative does something I like... Well, here's a conservative saying something I agree with! That the war was a huge mistake and that Bush is the worst president ever. (well, or one of anyway)

-Arlos

[Lyion]

Trump is a sensationalistic bomb throwing dirtbag.

I respect your opinion of Bush, in all your liberal hatred more than his Arlos. His is solely to keep his name in the news, or to offset his next casino bankruptcy or flamewar with chicks from the view.

Then again, this thread is based on a post from The Daily Kos. Not really much room for debate regarding that place.

I do find it interesting you will quote anyone, anytime, anywhere, Arlos... So long as they are attacking the Bush Administration...

[Gargamellow]

I don't see the iraqi civilians on your fancy list of casualties.

[Arlos]

I do find it interesting you will quote anyone, anytime, anywhere, Arlos... So long as they are attacking the Bush Administration...

Naw, when the middle or the left attacks Bush, I don't bother posting, because it's old hat. Those of us on the left have hated him since day 1, those in the center have already come to hate him now, cause of his incessant string of policy debacles. But, when someone on the right calls him out, well, that's a little less common. OK, so it's becoming more common now, but it wasn't at one point.

You, and those of your ilk, have long been in the habit of attacking the messenger, rather than the message, and one of your favorite tactics was to disparage the source as either another leftist, leftist website, leftist news source, etc. regardless of the veracity of that claim, and dismissing the comments as "Liberal Bias". (note, you've done it again here, not surprisingly) So, I look for comments that support my position that you have a harder time doing that to.

The message is the same from all the sources, mind you, you just have to get more inventive to dismiss the messenger when I pick a right-winger. Here you've already dismissed the website (apparently because it's leftist, though I've never heard of it), and since you can't write The Donald off as a liberal, you write him off as an attention seeker. You still ignore the MESSAGE, of course, which is amusing. It's become glaringly obvious that you're in at least subconscious intellectual panic mode, because you CANNOT dismiss the message itself, so you resort to more and more outlandish methods of dismissing the messenger, as if that somehow utterly invalidated the message.

I must say, it's highly entertaining watching your twister-like contortions to avoid the issue. You'd get 0/100 by using those methods in a Debate class, of course, but you at least seem to think it'll work here.

-Arlos

[Jay]

I don't see the iraqi civilians on your fancy list of casualties.

I dunno if that's directed at me or not but if it is then the iraqi citizens aren't listed because I could care less about them. I care about our soldiers getting killed for someone elses cause when we have a bigger threat out there hiding somewhere and I care that we are spending money on someone elses problem when we haven't fixed ours yet. It's terrible that the Iraqi innocent people are dying it really is. Unfortunately, we have kids in our schools with bad education, we have homeless, we have substandard living conditions for others right here in the US. If you saw a homeless man on the street and he asked you for the money you needed to feed your kids would you give it to him? If no that makes you a normal person. If yes, that makes you the Bush Administration. I have an idea, how about we work towards our average American being able to afford a house and our unemployment being less than 2% then we go spend billions to build a democracy for someone else?

[The Kizzy]

Amanda, the list was of American soldiers killed, not Iraqi, hence they would not be on that list.

[Lyion]

I bow to your fair and balanced reasoning, Arlos. One with your open and honest purview of events obviously is only interested in true facts, and surely is looking for truth and justice.

Also, I'm completely unaware of Trumps political leanings. Most of his time seems to be set with Casinos, Ms America concerts, and his bad TV shows. However, I guess to you anyone successful is an evil Republican, even if they lean Democratic, so long as they say what you want to hear.

[Spazz]

Who gives a fuck bout some dead iraqiZ ? If they didnt wanna get killed they shoulda moved out when they heard George WHAT THE FUCK Bush talkin bout whuppin TURists

[Markarado]

That's rather naive, Spazz. Most of those people had no way of relocating themselves.

In any war innocent people are going to die. I don't believe it's something to use against the 'war cause.' At the same time I feel sad that this has to happen to these people. I feel worse for their families. It's inevetable (sp?) though.

[Spazz]

I figured my sarcasm was very evident dipshit. I think the war is wack and I have from the getgo. I dont think a whole country could just up and leave there homes. Still I DONT GIVE A FUCK ABOUT IRAQIS. Thats My countries money and it should be put to use at HOME. YA dig ?

[Arlos]

You don't think those hundreds of thousands of dead have family members that might be a bit angry now at the US? If your brother was blown up by a US bomb, would you care if it was "just collateral damage" and it wasn't targeted at him? How about your 6 year old little sister? Hell, how about your toddler son? Your wife? Your mother? Fuck, you don't even have to think about those that're dead, you think a man who's son has lost both legs or his eyes to a shell fragments is going to be well-disposed because their family member was just maimed and not killed?

How many new terrorists have we created by giving them a very personal reason to hate America and Americans? For how many years will we be reaping what we have sown? Oh yes, we will be paying the costs of this war for a VERY long time, and I'm not talking about the monetary costs.


Oh, and Lyion, you're exactly right. I'm looking for FACTS (true facts is rather redundant, yes? How can you have a false fact?), Truth and Justice. So far, I see almost none of any of those 3 emanating from the Bush administration. Instead I see lies, deceit, criminality, gross mismanagement and a naked authoritarian grab and lust for power. None of which I find to be praiseworthy qualities...

I truly believe that Bush will go down in history as one of the worst presidents the US has ever had. Probably THE worst 2-termer. 50 years from now, high school sophomores in American History classes will read about him, and will no more understand how he got re-elected than they would understand tensor calculus.

-Arlos

[Lyion]

You solely care about attacking the Bush administration, which is why you'll use any source, any time as long as it caters to what you want to hear. Someone interested in truth would look at all angles. You have one angle.

You truly believed Bush was the worst President ever the day he stepped in office, and I doubt you'll find a single moderate person on this board who honestly thinks you have any interest whatsoever in facts or truth, Arlos. If you were interested in facts you wouldn't be throwing angry silly bombs of falsehood like this:

Truth and Justice. So far, I see almost none of any of those 3 emanating from the Bush administration. Instead I see lies, deceit, criminality, gross mismanagement and a naked authoritarian grab and lust for power.

I'm sure your parents were telling you how horrid Reagan was and you bought and believed how he'd be considered the worst President ever before. It seems you still spout anti Reagan talking points, even when most people completely disagree with you.

Any facts, from the economy, to immigation, to what's going on with the surge, to the real reason the Iraq War started, to even how many Iraqis have died <not hundreds of thousands> are things you could care less about. Your real goal is to attack the Bush Administration. It is all you do, and honestly it gets tiring for someone like me who has a lot of things I dislike, but get ridiculously branded a neocon or whatever simply because you are so antagonistic, angry, and hateful about any shred of conservative thinking for some reason.

[Zanchief]

You solely care about attacking the Bush administration, which is why you'll use any source, any time as long as it caters to what you want to hear. Someone interested in truth would look at all angles. You have one angle.

Hey Lyion, here's a mirror.

[Evermore]

lyion,

Bush and his administration are totally inept and brings these attacks on themselves. I cannot see 1 thing in his whole administration tenure that has been a true positive. I have to agree with arlos. Bush is going to go down as the worst president in US history. I just wish everyone would take the blinders off.