Home Schooling, WOW, criminals, teenage escapades..

[Lionking]

Charter schools are the answer.

QFT and Amen Brother!

[Phlegm]

Charter schools are the answer.

QFT and Amen Brother!

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... 89CA51.DTL

(08-17) 04:00 PDT Washington -- The first national comparison of test scores among children in charter schools and regular public schools shows charter school students often doing worse than comparable students in regular public schools.

The findings, buried in mountains of data the Education Department released without public announcement, deal a blow to supporters of the charter school movement, including the Bush administration.

The data show fourth graders attending charter schools performing about half a year behind students in other public schools in both reading and math.

Scores 'dismayingly low'

[araby]

I believe children would be well-rounded, smart, caring and respectful if they went to same-sex schools. All children, not just the ones with rich parents but all of them.

As educators and good people we are not preparing our children for the same thing, because it doesn't matter any more, making money matters and money buys education and more rich people are bred every day into the kind of wealth that keeps half or more of America completely ignorant about what is important. They spend their lives wanting and wishing when they don't even realize that the rich people aren't any happier. And everyone is just getting dumber.

We have abused our own system and it needs to be taken away because of it. The children should be taught and made to learn and respect each other like they were years ago. Girls need to be taught how to be ladies. Boys need to be taught how to be men. This isn't innate information and they learn-simply by what they watch. The sexes need to be separated for subjects and learning and put together for physical education. Proper exertion of energy and peers, unassociated with the learning process..it's my ideal system.

[Jay]

Anyone of above-average intelligence or higher should home-school their children. (time permitting of course...)Public schools are nothing more than daycare and provide little in terms of actual education.

How do you gauge above average intelligence? Also, by that rationale, does that mean that anyone who isn't capable of home schooling is below average or average? Being smart doesn't mean you can replace a teacher and no amount of intelligence can replace social interaction and experience. Public school is what the child and parent make of it. As a student, I embraced the learning experience because my parents taught me to do so. My parents also were very vocal when they felt my education was substandard.

Personally I think home schooling is cool in a child's adolesence as long as they have a regular group of friends to interact with. By the time middle school rolls around though I think it would be time for them to step away from the house and receive their teaching in classes with other students.

[Yamori]

What is a charter school?

[Lyion]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... 89CA51.DTL

(08-17) 04:00 PDT Washington -- The first national comparison of test scores among children in charter schools and regular public schools shows charter school students often doing worse than comparable students in regular public schools.

The findings, buried in mountains of data the Education Department released without public announcement, deal a blow to supporters of the charter school movement, including the Bush administration.

The data show fourth graders attending charter schools performing about half a year behind students in other public schools in both reading and math.

Scores 'dismayingly low'

Hey, look at that. A pro teachers union report from the worst newspaper in the country with an article attacking free competition and saying choice in schools is bad.

That study is looking at the current limited charter schools which are in poor urban areas and not given cash or free reign, either. There are only a handful of them, and it is a very bad evaluation.

It is a poor job of propaganda in all honesty which does not fairly represent the simple facts of open competition and choice versus having no options.

Charter schools are ones that are not in a public school district, that get funding by allowing parents the decision to send their kids there, Yamori.

A better comparison would be with New Zealand that operates much more efficient and better schools that are in effect charter.

The main goal is to remove the bureaucracy and to allow choice to students, especially in places where the public schools are unsafe or have substandard teachers. The problem is these are new entities and setting up independent schools in poor urban areas is difficult, which is where we are seeing most of the problems.

Choice breeds competition which enables improvement, especially over socialization which breeds mediocrity. Charter schools are essentially about choice. The problem is the monopoly union powered school people do not want competition and will attack this to keep their stranglehold on education, and disallow real freedom.

[Arlos]

Um, SFGate is the web portal for the San Francisco Chronicle. HARDLY the worst paper in the country. Indeed, us more liberal Bay Area types consider it overly conservative in a lot of its positions. Now, you want a REAL joke of a paper, look at the Washington Times. Owned 100% and run by the Moonies...

In any case, I've always been anti-charter schools, and this *GOVERNMENT* data even further solidifies my position. They're not the answer, they just make the problem worse, or act as a means for rich parents who were already sending their kids to private school to get even further coddling treatment by getting that money refunded.

The other problem is, since Charter schools are going to be run by all sorts of different organizations, they will further the polarization of splinter groups within the country. Religious parents will send their kids to religion-based schools, KKK parents will send theirs to whites-only schools, etc. etc. etc. Fuck that. We need less divisive elements, not more. Put all the kids into one school, so they HAVE to get used to people of other races, faiths, etc. and they might actually learn *gasp* tolerance.

-Arlos

[Eziekial]

Sorry Arlos, but I could care less about your worry of "polarization". I for one will not want my kids entering a meat grinder and getting churned out as homogenized spineless goo.

What good is *gasp* tolerance if everyone is forced to have their children institutionalized? Sure, we can all hold hands and sign Kumbaya as long as it's done to YOUR standards eh? Tolerance indeed.

You seem really bent on the theory that the rich parents are looking to take advantage of this system. I can assure you, RICH parents don't send their kids to public schools (with the exeption of beverly hills or the like) so they have the least to gain from a charter school system. The poor parents are the ones jumping on the charter school bandwagon because the public schools in there cities are more prisons than centers of learning. The only "fix" for our education system is to find as smooth a transition out of public hands and into private ones as soon as possbile.

[Phlegm]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... 89CA51.DTL

(08-17) 04:00 PDT Washington -- The first national comparison of test scores among children in charter schools and regular public schools shows charter school students often doing worse than comparable students in regular public schools.

The findings, buried in mountains of data the Education Department released without public announcement, deal a blow to supporters of the charter school movement, including the Bush administration.

The data show fourth graders attending charter schools performing about half a year behind students in other public schools in both reading and math.

Scores 'dismayingly low'

Hey, look at that. A pro teachers union report from the worst newspaper in the country with an article attacking free competition and saying choice in schools is bad.

That's a New York Times article by the way and the study is culled from the datas collected by the Education Department.

[Harrison]

Anyone of above-average intelligence or higher should home-school their children. (time permitting of course...)Public schools are nothing more than daycare and provide little in terms of actual education.

Wrong. If your kids aren't morons there are plenty of programs available to keep them interested in school.

You have no idea what you are talking about. I'm sure you had plenty to keep you occupied. That's good for you. The rest of us weren't afforded such a luxury as to be so easily occupied.

I feel bad for anyone who actually believes public schooling is doing an adequate job of educating anyone but a slow kid. I went through public schooling much more recently than you.

I will not put my kids through this pathetic excuse for an "education" system unless some major changes are made.

[Evermore]

Anyone of above-average intelligence or higher should home-school their children. (time permitting of course...)Public schools are nothing more than daycare and provide little in terms of actual education.

Wrong. If your kids aren't morons there are plenty of programs available to keep them interested in school.

You have no idea what you are talking about. I'm sure you had plenty to keep you occupied. That's good for you. The rest of us weren't afforded such a luxury as to be so easily occupied.

I feel bad for anyone who actually believes public schooling is doing an adequate job of educating anyone but a slow kid. I went through public schooling much more recently than you.

I will not put my kids through this pathetic excuse for an "education" system unless some major changes are made.

dont you have a GED? How far did you actually get>?

[Arlos]

What is available in public schools varies widely depending on where the school is located. Phoenix, Arizona, for example, had EXCELLENT public schools, and it's surely a major city. San Francisco has a number of excellent public schools as well. Indeed, there's tons and tons of awesome school districts all over the bay area. Wichita, Kansas, on the other hand, was indeed very similar to the school that harrison describes.

I can only speak to my experience, but that is that in both Phoenix and here in the bay area, opportunities abounded for gifted kids. In Phoenix, we got to work at our own pace in every subject, regardless of how fast that was. That's why I had finished some subjects up to the 6th and 7th grade levels by the time I was halfway through 2nd grade. Here in the bay area, in 5th grade they bussed us to the nearby junior high to learn computers and BASIC programming. In junior high, we had access to higher level math, english, etc. classes, plus advanced courses over the summer if we wanted them. In High School, they offered so many AP classes, that I graduated HS with over 20 units of college credit, and there were bunches I didn't take but could have. (languages, programming, etc.)

So, to proclaim that the ENTIRE system is broken beyond repair is both ludicrous and misleading, as well as being patently false. Certain school districts could certainly use complete overhauls, and just about everywhere could use some improvements, but to throw the baby out with the bathwater, as it were, is stupid and pointless.

Not to mention, Charter schools are often idealogy based. Why should *I*, a pagan, have to have my tax dollars going to a fundamentalist christian charter school that teaches its students hatred and intolerance to people of my faith? Why should a christian have to pay for a pagan-based school? Why should ANYONE have to pay for a school run by the KKK, neo-nazis, scientologists or moonies? Oh no, absolutely secular and non-politically oriented egalitarian public schools are the only fair option.

Lastly, if you don't see the potential polarizing effects of charter schools, you're blind. What do you think the impact is going to be if someone only associates with people already exactly like them, with similar looks, beliefs, ideals, etc. What happens when they hit college and are suddenly thrust into a completely heterogeneous environment? Incidence of intolerance and violence will skyrocket, as people won't have been exposed to other peoples and cultures, nor will they ever have had to deal with them. If you grow up around other groups, cultures and ideas, however, it's old hat, and you are far more likely to be far more tolerant. And the less racial/political/sexual/religious/etc intolerance we have in this country, the better.

-Arlos

[Narrock]

Arlos wrote:

Not to mention, Charter schools are often idealogy based. Why should *I*, a pagan, have to have my tax dollars going to a fundamentalist christian charter school that teaches its students hatred and intolerance to people of my faith? Why should a christian have to pay for a pagan-based school? Why should ANYONE have to pay for a school run by the KKK, neo-nazis, scientologists or moonies? Oh no, absolutely secular and non-politically oriented egalitarian public schools are the only fair option.

C'mon now Arlos. Christian charter schools teaches its students hatred and intolerance? That's a far stretch.

[Tossica]

Anyone of above-average intelligence or higher should home-school their children. (time permitting of course...)Public schools are nothing more than daycare and provide little in terms of actual education.

Wrong. If your kids aren't morons there are plenty of programs available to keep them interested in school.

You have no idea what you are talking about. I'm sure you had plenty to keep you occupied. That's good for you. The rest of us weren't afforded such a luxury as to be so easily occupied.

I feel bad for anyone who actually believes public schooling is doing an adequate job of educating anyone but a slow kid. I went through public schooling much more recently than you.

I will not put my kids through this pathetic excuse for an "education" system unless some major changes are made.

My son is in public school. He is finishing 5th grade this year. He lives in Florida which has one of the worst public school systems in the country yet he has not one but TWO completely different gifted programs to choose from next year.

[Zanchief]

I will not put my kids through this pathetic excuse for an "education" system unless some major changes are made.

You skipped a few steps. You're current target should be touching a ladies boob, and then you can start thinking about how to make children.

[Martrae]

Anyone of above-average intelligence or higher should home-school their children. (time permitting of course...)Public schools are nothing more than daycare and provide little in terms of actual education.

Wrong. If your kids aren't morons there are plenty of programs available to keep them interested in school.

You have no idea what you are talking about. I'm sure you had plenty to keep you occupied. That's good for you. The rest of us weren't afforded such a luxury as to be so easily occupied.

I feel bad for anyone who actually believes public schooling is doing an adequate job of educating anyone but a slow kid. I went through public schooling much more recently than you.

I will not put my kids through this pathetic excuse for an "education" system unless some major changes are made.

My son is in public school. He is finishing 5th grade this year. He lives in Florida which has one of the worst public school systems in the country yet he has not one but TWO completely different gifted programs to choose from next year.

Sorry, Toss, most 'gifted' programs are a joke. They really set kids up for failure later since they don't teach them that they might someday actually have to work at something to learn it. They instead spend time stroking their egos about how smart they are and doing 'fun activities' instead of teaching them even basic learning tools. Later when everything isn't just handed to them the kids wind up quitting because they never learned to put any actual effort into anything.

Just having a gifted program (or two!) isn't enough.

[Arlos]

Mindia, not all would, of course. But you have to admit that there ARE many rabid fundamentalist varieties of Christianity that teach people that wiccanism is right up there with Satanism, and they certainly aren't accepting of it. Hell, I've encountered enough individuals like that in my own perrsonal life over the course of time to be more than sure that that is the prevailing attitude among some people & churches. Not all, of course, or even a majority, but it's not an insignificant number either.

Make more sense now?

-Arlos

[Zanchief]

Sorry, Toss, most 'gifted' programs are a joke. They really set kids up for failure later since they don't teach them that they might someday actually have to work at something to learn it. They instead spend time stroking their egos about how smart they are and doing 'fun activities' instead of teaching them even basic learning tools. Later when everything isn't just handed to them the kids wind up quitting because they never learned to put any actual effort into anything.

Just having a gifted program (or two!) isn't enough.

I'm not sure how it works for you guys but up here that isn't the case at all.

[Tossica]

Sorry, Toss, most 'gifted' programs are a joke. They really set kids up for failure later since they don't teach them that they might someday actually have to work at something to learn it. They instead spend time stroking their egos about how smart they are and doing 'fun activities' instead of teaching them even basic learning tools. Later when everything isn't just handed to them the kids wind up quitting because they never learned to put any actual effort into anything.

Just having a gifted program (or two!) isn't enough.

Ugh, yeah... you don't know what the fuck you are talking about Martrae. Sorry.

[Martrae]

Unfortunately, it's all too common here. I'm not saying there aren't really good gifted programs out there....they're just not the majority.

[Tossica]

Unfortunately, it's all too common here. I'm not saying there aren't really good gifted programs out there....they're just not the majority.

Try living in the civilized world and you'd be surprised what types of programs are available.

[Narrock]

Mindia, not all would, of course. But you have to admit that there ARE many rabid fundamentalist varieties of Christianity that teach people that wiccanism is right up there with Satanism, and they certainly aren't accepting of it. Hell, I've encountered enough individuals like that in my own perrsonal life over the course of time to be more than sure that that is the prevailing attitude among some people & churches. Not all, of course, or even a majority, but it's not an insignificant number either.

Make more sense now?

-Arlos

Yeah there are probably a few, but most don't do that.

[Arlos]

I dunno, Mindia. Those who are out there with Falwell certainly do. Hell, look at what Falwell himself said immediately after 9/11. He laid blame for the attack at the feet of, among other groups he doesn't like, "the Pagans" in the US. I'm not making this up, he said that while talking to Robertson on the 700 club days after 9/11.

Now, I know you consider Robertson to be a whacko, but between him and Falwell they DO have 10s and 10s of millions of devoted followers, many/most of which believe like they do. Now, when I know there's 10s of millions of people out there who hate people of my faith so much that they'd blame us, for no apparent reason whatsoever, for 9/11? Plus knowing that these are exactly the kind of people that are very likely to run Charter schools? Well, can you see why I might be a BIT against them getting a dime of my tax money?

-Arlos

[Arlos]

Sorry, Toss, most 'gifted' programs are a joke. They really set kids up for failure later since they don't teach them that they might someday actually have to work at something to learn it. They instead spend time stroking their egos about how smart they are and doing 'fun activities' instead of teaching them even basic learning tools. Later when everything isn't just handed to them the kids wind up quitting because they never learned to put any actual effort into anything.

Uh, that's utterly unlike any Gifted program I was ever part of. In Phoenix, from what I remember of it anyway, there wasn't formalized classes, per ce. There was a staff of teachers, and every student got the textbooks for the classes the normal kids were taking, but we were allowed to work through them at our own pace. The teachers would give instruction on important parts as groups of kids got there, work individually with kids as necessary, and would test the kids as they reached various points throughout the textbooks.

So, if kids were smart, by the end of 1 year, they might well have passed through 1.5-2+ years worth of the normal curriculum. Same books the normal classes got, we just got to go through them faster. How it would have worked later in elementary school or into junior high/high school I have no idea, cause we left when I was halfway through 2nd grade. I do know they were not sure what to do next with me, because I'd finished the entire elementary curriculum for reading already by that point.

California, they offered, among other things, additional classes you could take, including advanced math, etc. In 8th grade, for example, I got to take a couple weekend classes and learned basic symbolic logic. In 5th grade they bussed us to the junior high school, where we got to take a BASIC programming class. (On TRS-80 model 1's, no less.)

So, just because you live in a shitty part of the country where the school boards can't get their heeads out of their asses and actually run decent gifted programs, does NOT mean that that is the universal condition. I can assure you from my own personal experience that you are flat wrong for multiple locations.

-Arlos

[Lyion]

I'd like to know where you get that Falwell and Robertson have 10s of millions of followers. The 700 club has never come near 1 mil viewership. Source, please? I can't think of anyone under the age of 65 who likes either of them.

Currently my tax dollars go to a very dodgy socialist public school structure that takes in huge amounts of coin and has many mediocre teachers and allows for no parental choice. I surely don't want to pay for this, anymore than you want to pay for a private Christian school. The thing is, the choice isn't ours. It should be the parents who decide, and the state that finances the education parents choose for their children.

Like it or not a lot of public schools currently are pushing an ideology, and the unions currently are in bed with certain politicians and their views which is against what many people want. It's terrible my salary pays for a propaganda apparatus like the teachers unions.

If a parent wants their kid to go to a Christian school, as long as it is providing the proper eduction, it is in their right to do so, and should be encouraged, as long as it provides appropriate education. It is certainly not the schools responsibility to decide what is and isn't moral or correct from that standpoint as you represent. That kind of thinking seems very anti democratic and communist in nature. Likewise, if someone wants to go to a Jewish, Muslim, or Spaghetti Monster school, as long as the parents are given choices and the curriculum and teachers are certified, it should be allowed.

It's about choice, freedom, and competition. Public schools provide none of that, which is the crux of their mediocrity and the reason we need change.