Home Schooling, WOW, criminals, teenage escapades..

[Menlaan]

I'm interested in hearing more about Wiccanism. I know next to nothing about it, but I've always associated it with witchcraft. My sister's former roommate was a Wicca, and she was pretty freaky. Of course, she had serious issues and was also a compulsive lier and a thief. At any rate, I'd be interested in hearing more. Maybe it should be its own thread.

[Zanchief]

It's about choice, freedom, and competition. Public schools provide none of that, which is the crux of their mediocrity and the reason we need change.

I disagree completely. I always thought it was counter productive to have schools competing. It just forces them to pass off the bad kids to the crappy schools so you are eventually left with cesspools. You need to share the responsibility instead of passing it all off into places that no body cares about. You'll just create places where no one can succeed in.

[Lyion]

All our schools compete already.

All our schools are graded, ranked, and their numbers are all public.

The well off move to areas with schools that perform above average and have the better teachers.

The problem is the people who do not have the means to move out of an area that has substandard schools with bad teachers. Charter schools gives them the choices that currently are available to those with the means to choose where they can live. This allows the competition to be there to push for more success and better teachers, or to close which is what is needed in many regards.

Currently, our only tool for bad schools is to throw more money at them. We can't fire tenured teachers. We can't allow them to have public money to go to the local private schools with 100 times better graduation rates. We just watch as they continue to wallow in mediocritity.

There will always be bad kids. We can't fix that. However, we can allow for choice and for the good ones to have a better chance, instead of just 'hoping for the best' in urban environments in a failed public school system.

[Martrae]

Unfortunately, it's all too common here. I'm not saying there aren't really good gifted programs out there....they're just not the majority.

Try living in the civilized world and you'd be surprised what types of programs are available.

I homeschool because I DO know what's available....and how it's taught.

[Burgy99]

Sorry, Toss, most 'gifted' programs are a joke. They really set kids up for failure later since they don't teach them that they might someday actually have to work at something to learn it. They instead spend time stroking their egos about how smart they are and doing 'fun activities' instead of teaching them even basic learning tools. Later when everything isn't just handed to them the kids wind up quitting because they never learned to put any actual effort into anything.

Just having a gifted program (or two!) isn't enough.

When I read this Mart, I felt the need to strongly disagree. I was in a gifted program untill middle school, where we did lots of problem solving, math based computer games (fun !) and we would take on projects such as planning a plot to a play, and then having to write the entire script ourselves and act it out on stage infront of the school. I also didn't have to take english or math for entire year because I tested out, they let us do fun things during that time instead. Now those are some quality, fun filled memories ! Once middle school hit, they scrapped the "gifted kids" group and just placed us in Advanced.

Ok. Then I read Arlos' experience and holy shit. Now THAT is a gifted program. If you compare it to his story, there was sooo much time that we wasted, playing on the computer or doing other dumb projects. I feel short changed now. I had the Presidents Award twice, given every 4 years for kids who maintain above a 90% average during those years. I skipped an entire year of foreign language and in 7th grade tested above the 12th grade level for the IOWA testing. These Project Challenge and Advanced groups never taught us good work habits though, so I made it all the way to highschool with out ever doing a paper of homework, at home.

Needless to say, when college English and Chemistry classes hit during highschool, I failed. How's that for a slap to the face? School became stressfull for the first time in 10 years because now I actually had to do homework to pass my classes. I still oppose homeschooling very much, but I think Mart does have a point that some of these school systems do not know how to manage their gifted kids properly.

[10sun]

I'd like to know where you get that Falwell and Robertson have 10s of millions of followers. The 700 club has never come near 1 mil viewership. Source, please? I can't think of anyone under the age of 65 who likes either of them.

I fall asleep sometimes with the TV on and I wake up realizing that the 700 Club show is on.

I think they try to brainwash me in my sleep.

[Arlos]

Lyion, the Christian Coalition alone claims over 2 million members. Go look at their "About Us" page on their website. How many people follow them but haven't donated money? How many people are members of aligned and similar groups? Even if I overstated the numbers as in the 10s of millions (and I honestly don't think I have), millions is certainly valid, and almost as scary.

Menlaan, if you're interested in learning about it, there are 2 good introductory books I can point you at: "Drawing Down the Moon" by Margot Adler and "The Spiral Dance" by Starhawk. There's a bunch of others out there, but both of those're good.

-Arlos

[Snero]

if there are problems with the current system, why not fix things rather than scrap it all together. Charter schools would really create a tiered system, which means the haves and the have nots, even moreso then currently. There is nothing that can't be fixed using the current system.

[Arlos]

Lyion just wants to be able to send his kids to a private Christian school and not have to pay for doing so, really. That's the main driving force behind the whole Charter School concept.

-Arlos

[Lyion]

How many subscribers does second life have? How many really play? Same theory as Falwell.

Can't win the argument so we ad hoc, eh, Arlos? I can afford to send my kids to private school, and I have the means to move so this doesn't really effect me at all. Nice try.

My main driving reason behind this is choice, and disruption of a bloated, inefficent, poor public school system. Your arguments seem to be that the state knows better and we must fight giving parents the rights to raise their kids, or decide how to educate them. I disagree.

[Martrae]

Sorry, Toss, most 'gifted' programs are a joke. They really set kids up for failure later since they don't teach them that they might someday actually have to work at something to learn it. They instead spend time stroking their egos about how smart they are and doing 'fun activities' instead of teaching them even basic learning tools. Later when everything isn't just handed to them the kids wind up quitting because they never learned to put any actual effort into anything.

Just having a gifted program (or two!) isn't enough.

When I read this Mart, I felt the need to strongly disagree. I was in a gifted program untill middle school, where we did lots of problem solving, math based computer games (fun !) and we would take on projects such as planning a plot to a play, and then having to write the entire script ourselves and act it out on stage infront of the school. I also didn't have to take english or math for entire year because I tested out, they let us do fun things during that time instead. Now those are some quality, fun filled memories ! Once middle school hit, they scrapped the "gifted kids" group and just placed us in Advanced.

Ok. Then I read Arlos' experience and holy shit. Now THAT is a gifted program. If you compare it to his story, there was sooo much time that we wasted, playing on the computer or doing other dumb projects. I feel short changed now. I had the Presidents Award twice, given every 4 years for kids who maintain above a 90% average during those years. I skipped an entire year of foreign language and in 7th grade tested above the 12th grade level for the IOWA testing. These Project Challenge and Advanced groups never taught us good work habits though, so I made it all the way to highschool with out ever doing a paper of homework, at home.

Needless to say, when college English and Chemistry classes hit during highschool, I failed. How's that for a slap to the face? School became stressfull for the first time in 10 years because now I actually had to do homework to pass my classes. I still oppose homeschooling very much, but I think Mart does have a point that some of these school systems do not know how to manage their gifted kids properly.

Thank you Burgy. You were a classic gifted victim. Do you happen to know how many kids that were in your gifted program dropped out, failed, wound up in dead end jobs, etc?

[Arlos]

I never said any such thing. Parents who wish to influence their childrens education have several options available to them. The PTA, various parent groups, or hell, running for your local school board. If you purely choose to whine about your local schools rather than try and work to fix them, I have no sympathy. And yes, bitching that we dont immediately convert to charter schools counts as whining.

Sorry, but I remain adamantly opposed to tax dollars going to any religious education program, or any other factionalized school of whatever stripe. Yes, I'd oppose tax money going to a pagan-oriented school as well.

No, public school is just that, and MUST be non-denominational and all-inclusive, since it must provide equally to all. Yes, there are certainly problems with public education. My own experiences in the Kansas system are ample evidence for that. But the best idea is to work to fix the system, not replace it with faction-specific balkanized pseudo-education, that the government's own numbers showed was inferior, as the original article discussed.

-Arlos

[Arlos]

Oh, sure, Martrae, simply having a Gifted program is by no means a guarantee of great education. Hell, Kansas had a "Gifted" program, but it was insanely retarded. They seperated out the gifted kids for half the day doing stuff a lot like you described (hell, they had us grow flowers: boys had to grow sunflowers, girls had to grow pansies. yeesh). Then, the other half of the day they put us in the same classes as everyone else, at the same speed as everyone else, where the non-gifted kids despised the gifted kids for being different.

The program in San Mateo County, however, emphasized expanding learning opportunities, into subjects that kids of that age would normally have no access to: like that BASIC programming (in 1980, mind you), or basic symbolic logic and its uses for problem solving, etc. The Phoenix program, you had to do most of the same work as non-gifted kids, you just did it faster. On top of that, they actually encouraged creativity, by things like creative writing contests, etc. One I remember is we had to write and illustrate a multi-page story, that would be judged by a panel at the school, and the best from that school would compete against the best from the other schools in the district, and the overall winners would be displayed downtown to the public. I actually took 2nd, and my best friend at the time took 1st, which she never let me live down while I was still there. heh.

In any case, I repeat my original mantra: There ARE worthy gifted programs out there. To state that all such education is broken and doesn't work is patently false, as I know from my own experiences.

-Arlos

[Martrae]

I believe I said there are some out there...they just aren't the 'norm'.

[Arlos]

I don't think either you or I have any way of determining whether or not they are or are not "the norm" short of doing a school district by school district survey of what programs they have across the entire nation. The ones near you that you have had experience with, no. My experience in 2 out of 3 places is there are. That's a very limited sample, I freely admit on my part. But note I've said that they do exist, I've not attempted to generalize my experience to claim that most are like it.

So, I'll certainly agree with you that some are inadequate, will even accept that most in your area are inadequate. I won't, however, buy "most nationwide" short of a nationwide examination of all of the programs.

-Arlos

[Lyion]

You don't like paying tax dollars to something you are against.. Welcome to everyone elses world.

You ignore my real argument of this helping those who need it, and allowing us to save more children. Many urban areas have 50%+ high school dropout rates. They recieve double or triple the funds per student that most suburban areas and have little noticeable improvement. They are loaded with problem kids and bad teachers. How do we get rid of the bad teachers? How do we fix these schools?

Charter schools will create a sense of urgency and allow competition to help save more of these kids. More charter schools also means more competition with the Christian and Catholic schools allowing for more variation and perhaps even less students going to religious schools. Choice gives options and spurs innovation. Static systems that don't demand results, won't get them.

The current handful of charter schools are not a valid example. A comparison of New Zealand who runs many charter schools versus our public schools and shows how better it can be is more accurate. A widespread good analysis of each would be even better.

Fortunately, it's just a matter of time before more states move away from the socialized, bad, homogenized, bureaucratic, bloated piece of garbage public school to a better system that gives people what they want, versus catering to socialist unionized inept groups that prefer having their free lunch, versus requiring actual accountability, which is the real goal of charter schools.

[Martrae]

As you say.

I will qualify my statement. In my experience, having worked at a public library that was very teacher friendly for 10 years, having lived in 4 states and at least 15 different areas, I have found that a 'good' gifted program is a rarity. In fact, I haven't run across one yet that was more than a recipe for future failure in my limited experience.

Wait...I take that back. There was a program at Copley that was actually decent.

[Arlos]

No, Lyion, I don't ignore your argument, I just disagree with it entirely. I think Charter schools will hurt far more people than they help, and that except at possibly a handfull of schools, educational standards will degrade. When you have for-profit entities competing for public dollars like that, you open up entire worlds for problems. How do you know they won't cut corners on numerous issues in order to better turn a buck? The best ones will quickly become exclusive, letting only a specific few that they consider "worthy" in. Meanwhile, budgets at public schools will be gutted, drastically worsening their quality of education. After all, they have absolute fixed costs that CANNOT be reduced: building maintenance, support staff as in janitors, etc. That will thus inevitably result in fewer dollars being available per student, etc. etc. etc.

No, no, a thousand times no. It isn't going to happen. Indeed, every time Charter schools have come up for statewide referendum here in CA (and I can recall at least 3 times), it's been resoundingly voted down; it's never gotten even close to my recollection. Hardly an inevitability that the change will happen, hmmm?

Martrae: I might even be willing to accept the posit that quality gifted programs are reasonably less common than crappy ones. It is, after all, harder to a good job at something that complex than it is to screw it up. That just means, though, that we should be looking at what makes the GOOD ones work, and adapting it nationwide to their individual needs, and thus working to improve the system, not discard it completely.

-Arlos

[Lyion]

It's pretty easy to look at schools flunking half their students as large failures that need drastic measures. Charter schools are successful in other countries that don't gut them due to political pressure before they even open. Thanks corrupt unions!

Yes, these will hurt some current piss poor schools, and they should. Many of these schools waste money and take their positions for granted. They are political and not accountable. That is a terrible combination and the main reason why change is desperately needed.

You mistakenly differentiate charter and public schools. Charter schools ARE public schools, and are accountable to the state laws and regulations passed regarding them. They are funded based on enrollment. They compete by providing the best service for the fixed per student cost. This is not 'gutting' schools or services. This allows freedom for parents and makes schools accountable, which is something sorely lacking in current schools, which have a mixture of outstanding and poor teachers who are tenured.

Charter schools are a matter of when, not if.

[kaharthemad]

remember kids...Communism and socialism solves everything. Capitalism and competition is just mean...to make those teachers actually EARN thier paycheck? I mean really thats just fucking mean.

[Yamori]

Lyion just wants to be able to send his kids to a private Christian school and not have to pay for doing so, really. That's the main driving force behind the whole Charter School concept.

-Arlos

I'm so NOT about the jesus, and there is no way in hell I'd ever put any kid of mine (that I kept and did not barter away to gypsies!!) in a public school.. So that's certainly not the main angle for lots of people I'd assume.

[Zanchief]

remember kids...Communism and socialism solves everything. Capitalism and competition is just mean...to make those teachers actually EARN thier paycheck? I mean really thats just fucking mean.

It's not the teachers I'm worried about, it's the students.

The students who don't have a choice, who don't meet the requirements for your charter schools who are doomed to fail in the cesspool that they have been left in since all the good teachers and good students have completely forsaken them.

[Snero]

remember kids...Communism and socialism solves everything. Capitalism and competition is just mean...to make those teachers actually EARN thier paycheck? I mean really thats just fucking mean.

yay sarcasm game!
the nerve of those dirty socialists actually caring about what happens to others, if somebody is having problems lets just lock them up and throw away the key that way we don't have to deal with it. Its always better in every case to let as many people as possible stick their hands in the pot and take their cut. Look what it did for our healthcare! we only pay a ton more than any other country on health care while a great deal of our citizens aren't even covered!

yay capitalism, the solution to all man's problems!

[Lyion]

It's not the teachers I'm worried about, it's the students.

The students who don't have a choice, who don't meet the requirements for your charter schools who are doomed to fail in the cesspool that they have been left in since all the good teachers and good students have completely forsaken them.

Except... Charter schools have state requirements and are public. They can't haphazardly discriminate, or no state funding.

The whole point of this is to give those students that choice you discuss that they currently do not have.

[Zanchief]

If they have no standards and gain no benefit from better scholastic results, what's the difference to public schools?