The immigration fiasco and IT

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The immigration fiasco and IT

Postby Lyion » Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:18 pm

Normally, I dislike activism. However, I think this is something most people on either side of the political spectrum can agree upon.

Congress is currently debating an immigration reform bill that really will hurt anyone in IT tremendously. I don't care your political leanings, this bill is bad for all of us.

First, it'll double H1B visa's currently allowed.

There are provisions for adding even more immigrants and no means to protect US worker jobs from being outsourced en masse.

This quote from the NYT from Tancredo is accurate, and with the open reigns of the immigration bill and it's new Z4 provision which essentially allows a flood of people to come here and take US jobs will hurt an already bad situation.

“I’ve got all kinds of people in my district — engineers, computer-science people especially — whose jobs have been eliminated by H1B,” Mr. Tancredo said in a telephone interview, referring to the federal visa program aimed at attracting foreign technical workers. “They believe, and I believe, it’s because the company found a source of cheaper labor.”


I suggest everyone who is interested contact their Senator, or more importantely their representative and voice their opinion of this bill.

http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_i ... rs_cfm.cfm

http://www.house.gov/house/MemberWWW.shtml
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Postby Ginzburgh » Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:50 pm

Lyion always leading the crusade for IT rights.
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Postby Tacks » Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:00 pm

he's an armed forces meathead, what else would he do! :P
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Postby Lyion » Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:10 pm

Ginzburgh wrote:Lyion always leading the crusade for IT rights.


Yup.

Too many friends with bachelors and masters degrees losing their jobs to guys shipped here from Russia or India. The new H1Bs make less than a manager at Wendys.

This happened in '99 and there was a big backlash. It's happening again now.
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Postby Evermore » Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:14 pm

i dont agree with lyion a whole lot but in this case he is correct. this is not a good thing
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Postby ClakarEQ » Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:22 pm

I don't really see anything wrong with this under the current state of affairs. We outsource a ton of blue collar jobs to manufacturing out of country.

This is good for big business, and that is what is important, not you or me, just big business.

No one has promise of a job regardless of your great education (Ph D, Masters, Bachlor, etc), if someone will do it for cheaper, you're screwed.

All that is said with sarcasm, being an IT guy I don't like this at all, but in some strange sense I feel white collars need to pay a higher price than blue because more and more have to pay in order to mobilize the people.

Gets me to thinking on when enough will be enough already. How much of our soul do we have to sell before the people realize we are all destined to go to hell unless something is done.

/ramblings off
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Postby Gaazy » Tue Jun 26, 2007 4:21 pm

The government will never care about the blue collar worker. Looks like they are caring less and less about the people who worked years for a degree too
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Postby Lyion » Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:15 pm

The problem is this 'global' economy bullshit is a total facade. It's built on the illusion of corporate profits and the stock market gains as the basis of how our country is doing.

Corporate America is beholden solely to success. The basis of success is increasing sales and lowering costs.

It's swell that Company X can lower costs by 50% and raise their stocks. However, this ignores the 10,000 US engineers and technicians who were fired, and whose jobs were outsourced to Argentina and India.

This is even harder to fight when the few good IT jobs left here can be filled by H1B engineers from India starting at 20,000/year here.

The answer is to ensure companies who take any government money, be it state or federal are employing US workers. If they aren't, they need to lose these billions of dollars, period. No ifs, ands, or buts. Take this away and suddenly the IBMs, EDSs, CAs, Telecoms, etc all will scramble to stop sending their jobs overseas....
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Postby Diekan » Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:06 pm

lyion wrote:The problem is this 'global' economy bullshit is a total facade. It's built on the illusion of corporate profits and the stock market gains as the basis of how our country is doing.

Corporate America is beholden solely to success. The basis of success is increasing sales and lowering costs.

It's swell that Company X can lower costs by 50% and raise their stocks. However, this ignores the 10,000 US engineers and technicians who were fired, and whose jobs were outsourced to Argentina and India.

This is even harder to fight when the few good IT jobs left here can be filled by H1B engineers from India starting at 20,000/year here.

The answer is to ensure companies who take any government money, be it state or federal are employing US workers. If they aren't, they need to lose these billions of dollars, period. No ifs, ands, or buts. Take this away and suddenly the IBMs, EDSs, CAs, Telecoms, etc all will scramble to stop sending their jobs overseas....


This is where you GOP supporters get it wrong. It's no longer about success for American companies. It's about total and complete power / domination / absolute profits - at all cost.

When are you people going to realize... the real danger to this country isn't Islamo-Terrorism... it's suits in board rooms selling this country out for bigger and bigger profits.
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Postby Lyion » Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:09 pm

Relativism is nice in science, but you don't offer any answers or anything besides a positioned political attack.

One would infer from your post you'd prefer a socialist country. I don't think that's what you mean, but outside of attacking corporate America, you aren't really saying what the answer is. What exactly do you want, Diek?

Capitalism is not the enemy, when done in a good environment. Companies can and should compete or we'll become a second world nation with a few rich people and no middle class whatsoever, a la Cuba. No thanks.
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Postby Tossica » Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:24 pm

Without government regulation on corporations, how do you force them to NOT sell out the nation to the highest bidder? The ONLY entity big enough to confront corporations on that kind of level is the government or at least in the past, the unions. Now that the unions have worn out their welcome, we are back at square one, pleading with the greedy.
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Postby Lyion » Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:04 pm

I'm all for government regulation and equalization for American workers competing, Toss. That's why I want no contracts from any government or state entity to be given to a company that uses offshore workers. Some states like Indiana are doing this. Others need to follow suit, and our Federal government needs to ensure that companies can compete, but not by displacing American workers for cheap H1B or overseas labor, which really isn't that difficult to do.
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Postby Tossica » Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:12 pm

Good luck getting the rest of the conservative base to buy in to that one while their net worth is based off of stock options from the very same companies that the legislation would threaten to constrict.
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Postby Lyion » Wed Jun 27, 2007 6:16 am

Actually, the immigration bill that has all the Z4 workers with limitless 4 year repeatable visa's and doubles the H1B quota is coming from the DNC leadership in congress.

Likewise, the last one came from the DNC.

Most of the tech company bosses clamoring for more and more H1Bs and easier rules for tech workers are not GOP stalwarts, but Democrats.

This is not a right vs left fight, as you <and Diek> wrongly try to portray it. A huge chunk of the corporate CEOs are Donkeys.

All I'm suggesting is contacting ones congressman/Senator and voicing displeasure if one does not like this bill. It is especially a bad deal for IT workers and engineers.
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Postby Diekan » Wed Jun 27, 2007 7:36 am

I sure as hell don’t want a socialist country. But, I’m also wise enough to understand the destructive force unchecked capitalism can be.

For the record, I am absolutely not against making money, living a comfortable life, or striving to achieve one’s goals. However, there comes a point when enough is enough, when too much is simply too much. We’ve arrived at that point and now the fruitarian of our neglect in holding key figures accountable have come to bare.

One thing that made this country great was its ability to create or engineer new technologies. This came from competition, which breeds invention and innovation. Competition is a good thing. But, when you have companies allowed to grow to the size of a Microsoft or an Exxon you systematically eliminate competition, which directly undermines the very thing that has given us the edge we once enjoyed over the rest of the world.

Take cell phones for example. Say T-Mobile was the Microsoft of the mobile phone industry. If that were the case, do you honestly think cell phones would be one step from hunting John Conner as they are now? Hell, no. They’d still be the size of toasters.

We developed Anti-Trust laws (back in the day) for a reason. A good reason.

Smashing the giant corporations into pieces would be a GOOD thing for this country. We’d see lower prices across the board, we’d see more jobs being created as new companies would spring up to get a piece of the pie. We’d see new technologies exploding onto the scene as each new company tries to out-do their competition. We’d have a good chance of regaining out position as the world’s leader in technology, engineering, and many other realms we’ve collectively sold out to the lowest bidder.

Step one is to smash large corporations into bits. Step two is to fine or imprison corporation leaders who sell jobs overseas. I know what you’re thinking…. “well they’d just shut their doors and everyone would lose.” Sure, they may shut their doors, but don’t kid yourself. A thousand people would be rushing to take their place with their own business license. So, let ‘em shut their doors.

As of now this country is being destroyed, from within, to the financial benefit of a few.

I don’t hate business. I hate HUGE business that are out of control. If I had my way – the CEO of Exxon would be put to death. He’s a terrorist, a traitor and an enemy of the state. I’d serious have him put to death. Tried, convicted and put in the gas chamber. Then I’d smash Exxon into pieces… allowing for smaller companies to spring up and take over the industry. Then I’d go after Microsoft and all the other juggernauts that are terrorizing this nation. I’d have all their CEO’s executed.
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Postby Evermore » Wed Jun 27, 2007 7:41 am

its not all corporations Diek. you have idiots in our government that are not helping. IE the record trade deficit.
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Postby ClakarEQ » Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:50 am

Destroying large companies or any attempt will just force them to move entirely resulting in a potentially worse situation.

I think MS has threatend a few times to move the HQ to Canada. Not sure how real those threats are but still.

I would rather push for changing how imports and exports work, using some sort of formula based on percentage of US (in country) workers a company may have regarding product that is sold in the US. The larger the percentage the better selling price or reduced tax for the product being sold.

If your company has 1% of US workers and are selling product here, then you get a penalty, if you employ 50% or more, you get no penalty. The formula would "almost" make it not worth outsourceing, as well as promote hiring of US citizens instead of non-US.

Wouldn't something like that protect the worker and actually drive companies to manufacture here?

What is the down side of that scenario?
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Postby Lyion » Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:21 am

Which is why a good, valid first step is for the government to not do business with companies that are outsourcing.

The biggest cash cow for the IBMs, AT&Ts and others is the government. If we make a simple, but effective law prohibiting any government dollars going to companies with any outsourced jobs, we'd see a plethora of new American tech jobs opening up with good pay, and many people clamoring to learn and get them
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