Stossel on Moore's Sicko

[Lyion]

Michael and Me
By John Stossel
Wednesday, July 18, 2007

Michael Moore loves government.

OK, he doesn't love a government headed by George W. Bush, but he believes that once the Democrats are in charge, government will do a better job providing health care.

In his new movie, "Sicko," he praises government-controlled health care systems in Canada and Europe. He suggests that Americans pay more for health care but have a shorter life expectancy than people in other countries because our health care is driven "by profit."

He is wrong in so many ways.

First, life expectancy is no measure of a country's medical system. Lifestyle and culture matter more, and Americans are different.

Interviewing Moore for an upcoming health care special on "20/20," I said, "In America we kill each other more often. We shoot each other. We have more car accidents. Forgive me, more of us look like ... you."

He smiled at that, but still argued that that people live longer in Canada "because they never have to worry about paying to go see the doctor. That means at the first sign of being sick they go right away to the doctor cause they're not worrying about whether or not they can afford it."

Please.

Freedom brings anxiety, but its other rewards are so superior to passive care from a smothering government.

America's medical system has problems, but profit is the least of it. Government mandates, overregulation and a tax code that pushes employer-paid health insurance prevent the free market from performing its efficient miracles. Six out of seven health-care dollars are spent by third parties. That kills the market. Patients rarely shop around, and doctors rarely compete on price or service.

Moore told me, "Government can do things right. ... My dad gets his Social Security check every month. Comes not only every month, it comes on the same day through the so-called 'dilapidated' U.S. mail. ... [A]sk your grandparents what they think of Medicare. Although it has its flaws, although it may be underfunded, it's a much better program than the HMO that somebody has."

Underfunded? Medicare has a 75-year $34 trillion unfunded liability! Its costs are growing faster than inflation. Social Security has a 75-year $5 trillion unfunded liability. These are Ponzi schemes that will be bankrupt before Moore reaches retirement age. The U.S. mail manages to deliver his dad's checks, but compare its performance to FedEx or UPS. The Post Office said it wasn't possible to deliver packages overnight.

I want FedEx health care: innovation, new cancer treatments, hip replacements and pain relief. We get that from private-sector competition, not government lethargy.

Moore said, "You don't introduce profit into your city water department."

He's wrong about that, too. As I wrote in "Give Me a Break", Jersey City, New Jersey's water tasted foul and failed safety tests. City workers said there wasn't much they could do. In fact, water prices would have to be raised ... just to maintain the lousy service they had.

So Jersey City turned its water system over to a for-profit company. Within months it had fixed the pipes government workers said couldn't be fixed, and for the first time in years, Jersey City's water met the highest cleanliness standard. Taxpayers saved $35 million.

The private company could do it better and cheaper because their skills were honed by constant competition.

Private competitors innovate or die. Government workers do what they did last year. That's why I want the private sector to provide my health care. Pursuit of profit will give us our best medicines and medical devices. I'll pay you $1,000 if you can name one thing government does more efficiently than the private sector.

Moore laughed at me, saying, "You are, like, so Thirteenth Century," but he conceded that America's founding libertarian philosophy has made us a rich and innovative country. "Look at everything we've invented," he told me. "I say to my British friends, can you tell me something you invented in the last 50 years. I mean, what have you given us?"

"Can they come up with anything?" I asked.

"No, they have a hard time. That can-do spirit served us well in building this country."

Served? It still does. And will -- if government would just get out of the way.

[Zanchief]

Yet another conservative editorial. Is there anything presented in this article aside from opinion?

[Lyion]

Look, actual facts and opinion! Quick, run away Zanchief!

Stossel also isn't a conservative, although being a foreigner you probably don't know him, like the Americans here do.

[Zanchief]

You think my problem is that I don't have enough opinions? That's the first time anyone has ever accused me of that.

[Lyion]

I think you are all opinion and you detest contemplating the other side of issues.

Which is odd, because you're a very smart guy. Although Arlos is the same way, so I guess it's the Cool Aid they make you drink.

[Zanchief]

They serve shasta at all the Liberal get-togethers.

[Tikker]

He smiled at that, but still argued that that people live longer in Canada "because they never have to worry about paying to go see the doctor. That means at the first sign of being sick they go right away to the doctor cause they're not worrying about whether or not they can afford it."

Please.

Moore is right

First, life expectancy is no measure of a country's medical system. Lifestyle and culture matter more, and Americans are different.

wow, amazingly thoughtful response!



canadian style medicare is obviously not perfect. any system out there can be exploited to the detriment of all


the main problem with health care, is people are afraid to cull the herd

[Arlos]

I kinda like the german/australian system, actually. Universal health care for all, with guaranteed quality care in a reasonable period. But, there are government-regulated NON-PROFIT private insurance companies which you can buy into which get you faster care, etc.

I maintain that health care should *NEVER* be a for-profit industry. Period. Ever. Because if it is, then you get what we have now: companies letting sick people suffer and die, in order to preserve tenths of a percent in quarterly profit margins. That's unconscionable. Life and health of the patient should ALWAYS be the foremost and paramount concern, NOT whether some schmuck middle manager will make his bonus that month for keeping to cost margins.

-Arlos

[Lyion]

While I empathize somewhat, Arlos, I have to disagree. Where do we draw the line at for profit?

What about pharmacuetical companies? What about all the periphery health care companies?

The problem here is this mindset can extent to pretty much everything.

[Tikker]

While I empathize somewhat, Arlos, I have to disagree. Where do we draw the line at for profit?

I like how you're against government regulation in health care, but scream bloody blue murder that the government needs to step in and keep the IT industry from making mad profits by exporting all the support/jobs

you don't get it both ways

[Snero]

Freedom brings anxiety, but its other rewards are so superior to passive care from a smothering government.

this right here pretty much sums up his argument, he somehow equates universal healthcare to a smothering government. He talks about over regulating, when the alternative would cost many lives, there's a reason why things are as strictly controlled as they are, public safety.

There is a massive difference between FedEx and health care, one is a useful service, the other is the difference between life and death (if you want to go less extreme, a healthy vs a sickly life). If FedEx were to decide one day, they wanted to cut back on some of their deliveries, on their fleet of planes, they could save money or piss off the public. If a hospital tries to cut corners, people die.

He also brings up the situation of a New Jersey utility system, where privatization worked like a charm. There have also been a ton of examples where turning a public institution private has made a mess of things, in some examples to the point where the government has to step in and take over again.

[Zanchief]

There have also been a ton of examples where turning a public institution private has made a mess of things, in some examples to the point where the government has to step in and take over again.

I actually have first hand experience with this~

[Snero]

same, I worked in a recently privatized company for over a year and it was a mess

[Arlos]

Hell, just look at what happened when the de-regulated electricity in California.

-Arlos

[araby]

hm, let me tell you about what happened to me today.

three days ago I started experiencing pain in my lower back and attributed it to pre-menstrual pain I usually get back there. ibuprofen took care of it.

two days ago, same symptoms, same relief. no problem.

yesterday I can't walk, can't sit, can only lay for five minutes without pain. ibuprofen no longer works. a friend gives me darvocet, it doesn't touch the pain.

I do not have health insurance. I see a chiropractor, I've had good results with them before. she takes xrays. I have a curvature. I say "No shit, I am leaning because I can't walk straight." she wants me to see her the next day.

today I go to see her. she says "I think you need an orthopedist." every office I call they ask within two questions "do you have insurance?" I couldn't get an appointment. Noone would see me as a new patient today on emergency because I did not have insurance.

On a scale of 1-10 my pain is a 10. I should not be driving my car, because I want to pass out from the pain, I'm sure I'm making whatever it is worse by driving around but I called and no one could drive me. I took myself to Doctor's Care, who has an orthopedist working for them I saw a few years ago. I walked in and stood at the counter for five minutes, tears streaming down my face(from pain) and noone ackowledged I was standing there. I took a piece of their tissue from the counter, wiped my face with it and threw on the counter and walked out.

I went to MUSC after that, the emergency room saw me within 15 minutes and gave me something for the pain. that wasn't after the doctor who saw me tried to downplay my pain level and said "Well you walked in here didn't you?"

I said, "In fact I did it very slowly and painfully, the orderly who helped me find the ER from the parking garage asked me if I needed a wheelchair but I refused it because I can't sit down."

She said, "Don't get defensive with me."

I started crying...I have been stressed, in pain and following the wrong path to treatment and when I finally get what I need to ease the pain, I still do not know what is wrong with me and if it gets worse then I will go back to them. 4-6 weeks from now. in the meantime I have painkillers. they work, but I sure wish I knew what the hell is wrong with my ass, hips and why I can't walk or sit.

I am on bedrest and just finished watching Sicko.

[Gaazy]

You have the clap..

[Arlos]

Boy, the american medical system is so awesome for people like us with no insurance, eh Araby? I feel proud to live in this society where tens of millions of people can suffer grievous medical ills and yet be unable to get treatment because we're not lucky enough to have jobs that give coverage. We know we don't need actual coverage because people like Lyion, who HAS coverage tells us so! Boy, I can just feel his disdain for paying a few more bucks a month to enable universal health care making my medical problems all better, can't you?

-Arlos

[araby]

My employer doesn't offer it. My coworker recently took a job at the Medical University just to get the benefits. She took a huge pay cut, which I am not willing to do. She even mentioned they have a position available over there but I can't see leaving my job with what I make, in order to have insurance, when I know how the companies work. To me it's not even worth it, I make too much money where I am right now to leave it and I rarely need or go to the doctor. I don't go to the doctor often enough to lose that hourly money. Now that I'm in my thirties I'm sure I will begin to need it (the body starts breaking down at some point, in spite of my overall health things are going to give you trouble at some point in life.)

I think if I had a choice between health care and retirement I'd take the retirement. even having insurance these days doesn't mean they'll pay. it's corrupt.

[araby]

It's interesting that not only do the insurance companies dictate your treatment too often, they also dictate which jobs you take so that you might get coverage in life.

[Spazz]

Yea most people against it seem to be people with decent health care. If lyion got hurt really badly had to live with constant pain and had no options for what he could do about it he would change his story.

[Evermore]

Boy, the american medical system is so awesome for people like us with no insurance, eh Araby? I feel proud to live in this society where tens of millions of people can suffer grievous medical ills and yet be unable to get treatment because we're not lucky enough to have jobs that give coverage. We know we don't need actual coverage because people like Lyion, who HAS coverage tells us so! Boy, I can just feel his disdain for paying a few more bucks a month to enable universal health care making my medical problems all better, can't you?

-Arlos

ya know the funny thing about this arguement is the fact that most hospitals have charity care options. Where i work did 74.7 mil in charity care last year for instance. Not all do but most.

[Lyion]

Yea most people against it seem to be people with decent health care. If lyion got hurt really badly had to live with constant pain and had no options for what he could do about it he would change his story.

Except you don't know anything about me. Unlike Arlos or you, I've survived the fun of socialized medicine in the military. I've also been hurt bad and not allowed meds due to said socialized system.

I think health insurance is ass and the system needs vast reformations. I just don't want federal centralized government controlled health care a la Britain and Canada, because I feel it's vastly inferior to our system now.

I'm not here to challenge anyone's bad experiences, or justify the problems, but I prefer a half broken system to a 3/4 broken one...

[Spazz]

Well i would prefer to get my shoulder fixed so it would stay in the socket Cant afford that shit and I pay out the ass for health care. Id rather be on a waiting list than no list at all.

[Darcler]

Gid was on a waiting list 1.5 months long just to make an orthopedist appt. Not 1.5 to the appt. 1.5 to make it.
Military insurance has paid only for my therapist bills. The ped. bills arent covered, even though they are in the network. It's fabulous. I owe a lot for routine checkups for the kids.
The hospital in my town has the chairty coverage. If you lack insurance and dont make a lot, they will bill you on a sliding scale, depending on what treatment you get, they possibly wont charge you. Unfortunately, we have insurance but the ER we went to for Girl's bronchitis apparently didnt like military insurance, I owe them too.

/random

[Tikker]

I just don't want federal centralized government controlled health care a la Britain and Canada, because I feel it's vastly inferior to our system now.

quick, explain how the american system is better than the canadian system

health care for those that can afford it vs universal health care, hrmmm

nope, I can't see how it's better, unless you've got the cash to jump to the head of the line US stylez