Life Term for Teen in Principal's Death

[Zanchief]

Zan - I have no bloodlust for this kid. I don't want him to go to jail to suffer rape etc, that's not what prison is about

So what is it about? Do they have any delusions of trying to reform criminals or is it a torture house for people who done bad? It can't be both.

[Gypsiyee]

Depends on the prison, they aren't one size fits all - they vary by degree, state laws, etc.

*Many* prisons attempt to reform and have sessions and group activities - it's not like the kid is going to death row. There is a set structure prisons follow - 'torture house' would imply alcatraz, that's not what they do. It's simply a high structure high security facility meant to cut people off from society and take away the freedom that they've taken for granted. That's not torture - it's revoking privileges that were obviously given to those who didn't deserve them. Prison is a nicer life than marine boot camp - would you rather him attend a boot camp type facility for a set amount of years? Because I'd be fine with that also.

By the logic I'm hearing, prison is pointless and we need to just help everyone who commits a heinous crime.

[Zanchief]

By your logic prisons are useless, not mine. Your prisons are cages to keep people away and fuck them up further.

In your prisons people come out way worse then they went in.

You can't have it both ways, Gyps. Either you agree with me that prisons should help rehabilitate, or you think they should be harshly punished.

[Martrae]

I have to disagree there, Martrae. Justice is about punishment.

We send people to jail to 'pay' for their crimes, i.e., to be punished.

However, as a modern society we should not be executing mentally retarded people (or anyone, for that matter), and we should cautiously approach putting a child in jail for life for dodgy circumstances. That is not punishment, but vengeance, in my opinion, as it does not fit justice.

No, we send people to prison to keep them away from law-abiding citizens. We send them to prison in the vain hope that prison will give them time to reflect on their crimes and feel remorse. Isn't that what parole hearings are all about...the parole board listening to criminals say how sorry they are and how they'll be good from now on?

Justice is about a just and evenhanded approach to everything....not just crime.

[Gypsiyee]

Note that I said group activities and structure - this is not harshly punishing anyone - it is punishment in the sense that they are stripped of their freedoms. That isn't harsh punishment - punishment, yes.. but apparently there are varying degrees of that word in this thread.

The punishment you're portraying from my view is something like whippings, beatings, physical pain etc - that's not the punishment I'm saying his crime warrants. The punishment I feel at minimum that he should get is what I formerly mentioned; stripped of his daily freedoms that he has taken for granted and put into an environment where he has no control or choice over his daily life, which will (should) instill appreciation of the life he had before he abused those privileges and stole a life, and stripped of those freedoms in a place where he cannot harm anyone else in his little hissy fits.

I'm not saying mentally he can't be helped, and I do think that he needs help; however, I don't think that he should get that sort of help on his own terms, and obviously the family is biased but it is their lives that he ruined, and they have every right to justice in that sense.

[Zanchief]

The punishment you're portraying from my view is something like whippings, beatings, physical pain etc - that's not the punishment I'm saying his crime warrants. The punishment I feel at minimum that he should get is what I formerly mentioned; stripped of his daily freedoms that he has taken for granted and put into an environment where he has no control or choice over his daily life, which will (should) instill appreciation of the life he had before he abused those privileges and stole a life. I'm not saying mentally he can't be helped, and I do think that he needs help; however, I don't think that he should get that sort of help on his own terms, and obviously the family is biased but it is their lives that he ruined, and they have every right to justice in that sense.

That won't happen in prison.

[Gypsiyee]

It doesn't happen with everyone, granted. There are clearly people who cannot be helped and who prison is a complete waste of time, but is used as a means of isolating them from society - if he can be saved, though, it *would* happen for him.

No 2 prisoners are the same. I didn't think they'd make michael jackson videos in prison either, but lo and behold..

[Evermore]

Note that I said group activities and structure - this is not harshly punishing anyone - it is punishment in the sense that they are stripped of their freedoms. That isn't harsh punishment - punishment, yes.. but apparently there are varying degrees of that word in this thread.

The punishment you're portraying from my view is something like whippings, beatings, physical pain etc - that's not the punishment I'm saying his crime warrants. The punishment I feel at minimum that he should get is what I formerly mentioned; stripped of his daily freedoms that he has taken for granted and put into an environment where he has no control or choice over his daily life, which will (should) instill appreciation of the life he had before he abused those privileges and stole a life, and stripped of those freedoms in a place where he cannot harm anyone else in his little hissy fits.

I'm not saying mentally he can't be helped, and I do think that he needs help; however, I don't think that he should get that sort of help on his own terms, and obviously the family is biased but it is their lives that he ruined, and they have every right to justice in that sense.

this assumes the prisoner is able to be rehabilitated. not all are.

[Lyion]

No, we send people to prison to keep them away from law-abiding citizens. We send them to prison in the vain hope that prison will give them time to reflect on their crimes and feel remorse. Isn't that what parole hearings are all about...the parole board listening to criminals say how sorry they are and how they'll be good from now on?

Justice is about a just and evenhanded approach to everything....not just crime.

In sentencing, one gets time based on the nature of their crime. A murderer gets 30 years. A rapist 15. A carjacker 10. Those terms are not for keeping them away, but for giving them debts to society in which they will pay incarcerated. Parole hearings are simply a way to circumvent letting the really bad apples out any earlier than we have to, and have nothing to do with justice.

By your reasoning, we'd be better off with the Snake Pliskin Escape from New York jail system. Which, in all honesty, isn't that bad an idea.

I have to agree with Zan. Our jail systems are horrid, terrible setups not at all geared towards any sort of betterment of society, but simply a torquemada brand of justice. We should build a better mousetrap, but unfortunately it's not something easily attainable.

[Gypsiyee]

Note that I said group activities and structure - this is not harshly punishing anyone - it is punishment in the sense that they are stripped of their freedoms. That isn't harsh punishment - punishment, yes.. but apparently there are varying degrees of that word in this thread.

The punishment you're portraying from my view is something like whippings, beatings, physical pain etc - that's not the punishment I'm saying his crime warrants. The punishment I feel at minimum that he should get is what I formerly mentioned; stripped of his daily freedoms that he has taken for granted and put into an environment where he has no control or choice over his daily life, which will (should) instill appreciation of the life he had before he abused those privileges and stole a life, and stripped of those freedoms in a place where he cannot harm anyone else in his little hissy fits.

I'm not saying mentally he can't be helped, and I do think that he needs help; however, I don't think that he should get that sort of help on his own terms, and obviously the family is biased but it is their lives that he ruined, and they have every right to justice in that sense.

this assumes the prisoner is able to be rehabilitated. not all are.

I ninja posted right above you =p

[Zanchief]

Note that I said group activities and structure - this is not harshly punishing anyone - it is punishment in the sense that they are stripped of their freedoms. That isn't harsh punishment - punishment, yes.. but apparently there are varying degrees of that word in this thread.

The punishment you're portraying from my view is something like whippings, beatings, physical pain etc - that's not the punishment I'm saying his crime warrants. The punishment I feel at minimum that he should get is what I formerly mentioned; stripped of his daily freedoms that he has taken for granted and put into an environment where he has no control or choice over his daily life, which will (should) instill appreciation of the life he had before he abused those privileges and stole a life, and stripped of those freedoms in a place where he cannot harm anyone else in his little hissy fits.

I'm not saying mentally he can't be helped, and I do think that he needs help; however, I don't think that he should get that sort of help on his own terms, and obviously the family is biased but it is their lives that he ruined, and they have every right to justice in that sense.

this assumes the prisoner is able to be rehabilitated. not all are.

So your solution would be capital punishment for all prisoners, a solution that doesn't help society because the prisoner will leave prison worse then when he went in. It doesn't help the prisoner because he has no hope of changing his life. It doesn't help the offender's victims, since his crimes won't be undone no matter how hard he gets rapped.

To be honest I don't know what a good solution is. I just never understand bailing out of the problem and taking the easy road just to satisfy society's bloodlust.

[Gaazy]

No, he SHOULD go to prison and suffer rape and all the bells and whistles that come with it. The moment he pulled that trigger he lost his right to be protected from anything. Fuck him, I hope he gets shanked. Murder is murder, whether you have the mind of a 10 year old or not.

[Martrae]

Such compassion.

And if, as he says, it went off accidentally when the principal bear hugged him and then he panicked?

[Evermore]

Note that I said group activities and structure - this is not harshly punishing anyone - it is punishment in the sense that they are stripped of their freedoms. That isn't harsh punishment - punishment, yes.. but apparently there are varying degrees of that word in this thread.

The punishment you're portraying from my view is something like whippings, beatings, physical pain etc - that's not the punishment I'm saying his crime warrants. The punishment I feel at minimum that he should get is what I formerly mentioned; stripped of his daily freedoms that he has taken for granted and put into an environment where he has no control or choice over his daily life, which will (should) instill appreciation of the life he had before he abused those privileges and stole a life, and stripped of those freedoms in a place where he cannot harm anyone else in his little hissy fits.

I'm not saying mentally he can't be helped, and I do think that he needs help; however, I don't think that he should get that sort of help on his own terms, and obviously the family is biased but it is their lives that he ruined, and they have every right to justice in that sense.

this assumes the prisoner is able to be rehabilitated. not all are.

So your solution would be capital punishment for all prisoners, a solution that doesn't help society because the prisoner will leave prison worse then when he went in. It doesn't help the prisoner because he has no hope of changing his life. It doesn't help the offender's victims, since his crimes won't be undone no matter how hard he gets rapped.

To be honest I don't know what a good solution is. I just never understand bailing out of the problem and taking the easy road just to satisfy society's bloodlust.

i didnt suggest a solution I simply stated that Gyps is making an assumption, tho she did ninja 1st...

I tend to agree with your statement Chief, I do not think there is an overall soultion. on top of that, any type of 1 on 1 solution is going to be so cost prohibitive..

[Gypsiyee]

Compassion for a killer isn't in my realm of thought, personally.

Shouldn't have had the gun there in the first place, so even if it was a boohoo panic, he's still at fault for a man's death.

[Gaazy]

Gyp hit the nail on the head. I dont have compassion for killers. He shouldnt have had a gun period, much less a gun in school.

[Zanchief]

He may not have any right to any compassion, and it's definitely easier to hate the kid, but what I'm saying is compassion is more productive than hatred.

[Gypsiyee]

I agree with you that compassion is more productive, but you have to think about it - if you're compassionate for a person who kills, who's to say that it won't eventually become socially acceptable to do these types of actions if you have a rough life?

Oh, I got molested as a child.. np, I'll go rape someone and it'll be okay because after all, I had a rough childhood and people will be able to empathize with me.

The constant "I'm the victim" mentality isn't a healthy one to have for the long haul, and it's simply not right to victimize the culprit. Being a victim of one crime does not make it ok to be the aggressor of another except in very rare cases such as self defense.

[Gaazy]

Well, it is easier to have hatred towards him...but its not like he didnt earn it. I didnt just walk down the street one day and say oh hey I think im gonna hate that kid.

[Martrae]

I agree with you that compassion is more productive, but you have to think about it - if you're compassionate for a person who kills, who's to say that it won't eventually become socially acceptable to do these types of actions if you have a rough life?

Oh, I got molested as a child.. np, I'll go rape someone and it'll be okay because after all, I had a rough childhood and people will be able to empathize with me.

The constant "I'm the victim" mentality isn't a healthy one to have for the long haul, and it's simply not right to victimize the culprit. Being a victim of one crime does not make it ok to be the aggressor of another except in very rare cases such as self defense.

And I advocated letting him go free where? My point is 30 years in prison isn't going to do more than heap more abuse on him and he's had enough of that. It won't change him because it's merely more of the same.

[Harrison]

This thread kind of makes me lose hope in humanity.

Kid kills man

People feel bad for the murderer

[Gypsiyee]

I agree with you that compassion is more productive, but you have to think about it - if you're compassionate for a person who kills, who's to say that it won't eventually become socially acceptable to do these types of actions if you have a rough life?

Oh, I got molested as a child.. np, I'll go rape someone and it'll be okay because after all, I had a rough childhood and people will be able to empathize with me.

The constant "I'm the victim" mentality isn't a healthy one to have for the long haul, and it's simply not right to victimize the culprit. Being a victim of one crime does not make it ok to be the aggressor of another except in very rare cases such as self defense.

And I advocated letting him go free where? My point is 30 years in prison isn't going to do more than heap more abuse on him and he's had enough of that. It won't change him because it's merely more of the same.

Well, I've asked a couple times now what your suggestion is - I've asked what would be justified to you, where is the justice for the family, and what you think should be done and you haven't responded yet, leading me to believe you either a) have no clue and you just think it's harsh with no idea of an alternative or b) want him to go free.

[Martrae]

First off, the family will never have justice. There is no way to bring back the dead. The best they can hope for is to on with their lives with as minimum upheaval as can be managed in a situation like this. The only thing a long prison sentence for the murderer will do for them is slake their thirst for vengeance.

What I think should have happened is that he shouldn't have been tried as an adult and he should have been sentenced to a mental health facility where he could get the help he needs.

And yes, Harrison, I have compassion for the child. The principal is dead...there's nothing that can be done to change that....but the boy still lives and there is a possibility that he could be salvaged and helped.

[Arlos]

And I see a HUGE difference between a abused and somewhat retarded kid who was driven by abuse and lack of support into what was probably effectively insanity and some random gang-banger that shoots someone as part of a liquor store holdup.

That people CAN'T see a difference there makes ME despair for humanity.

-Arlos

[10sun]

the boy still lives and there is a possibility that he could be salvaged and helped.

Many other people sitting in our prisons are far better choices for attempts at salvage.

He had a gun in to school.
HE BROUGHT A FUCKING GUN INTO A SCHOOL.
The entire incident was clearly premeditated.

He prepared for school that day saying, "math homework? check. pencils? check. shotgun? check. revolver? check. Box for 50 rounds for revolver? check."

He is a menace to society. He didn't accidentally shoot his principal. He shot him three times with a revolver. Revolvers are not automatics. He pulled the trigger THREE TIMES.

What would happen if he were to be treated as a juvenile and released when is 25? What happens when someone cuts him off and gives him the finger? What happens when children make a silly face or an off the cuff remark to him?

A simple time out and a warning is by no means sufficient for this sociopath.

A life sentence is not about punishing Eric Hainstock.
It is about protecting the law abiding citizens from him.