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by **Lyion** » Sat Jul 17, 2004 7:14 pm

Ok, let me preface this by saying that while I've played WOW, I am not 'deep' into it. This post is my feeling from playing and chatting with a lot of beta people.

My real problem with WOW is that at its source it is an EQ Clone. It's basically packaging and reselling EQ with the Warcraft universe. They have borrowed from other games, but at its core its easy to see where it got its influence.

Obviously some things in WOW are improved. Quests are nice. Death is setup in a better way. The graphics run well and look gorgeous. Some things are not. Grouping is not that great. Soloing is tedious, and is not a good use of ones time. The game is a treadmill with the whole point to spend exhorbitant amounts of time to get items and levels. Sound familiar?

Unless the design document gets a complete makeover, I see no reason why this game will dethrone EQ. I think it'll sell decently, as it's a good product, and has the Blizzard name attached to it. However, it is Levelquest, through and through. Despite the improvements, the design document at the core of this game could easily be a rewrite of Brad Mcquaid's 1997 Everquest one.

The endgame of WOW is being designed by the people from the EQ Uberguilds, and from what I've gathered will be similar to whats been done with EQ and a few other games.

My big question is, despite the improvements and renovations, why would anyone want to 'redo' Everquest? WOW is simply Everquest in a newer package.

Make no mistake, I'm not saying WOW is a BAD game. It's far from that, and its an upgrade from Everquest... But its essentially the same experience as EQ, and being I've already done EQ, I personally am not sure if I have the desire to do it over....

by **Tacks** » Sat Jul 17, 2004 7:29 pm

The game is a treadmill with the whole point to spend exhorbitant amounts of time to get items and levels. Sound familiar?

Althought I respect your opinion, I'm curious. What level have you gotten to? Levelling in WoW is WAY easier than EQ if you thought that would ever be possible. With no death toll you can get to the level cap in a month your first time through if you play WoW as much as you played EQ.

by **Harrison** » Sat Jul 17, 2004 7:46 pm

As Ive stated, Ill make my assessments when I actually play these newcomers.

But admittedly I am leaning towards EQ2 slightly more. That could change at any moment.

by **labbats** » Sat Jul 17, 2004 7:53 pm

Way to flip-flop Munson

by **Treehorn** » Sat Jul 17, 2004 9:09 pm

I don't care about whether anything is an "EQ killer" or not. $oE has been doing a fine job of that all on their own for years.

EQ is already dead as far as I'm concerned. As much as I itch (burn, more like) to play an Iksar again, and to quest and poke around Kunark, I won't be playing again.

I don't care about "repeating" EQ. I don't see that as a problem exactly. Also, I seriously doubt that EQ2 will "repeat" EQ any less than WoW, or any other MMORPG.

Besides, I didn't quit because it had become too repetitious for me, or because I was bored. I had plenty of new things left to see and do.
I could have gone on playing new classes, trying new quests, meeting new people, etc. for a long time to come.

I quit because I was fed up with $oE's ineptitude (DX9 travesty pretty much clinched it for me). Blizzard may very well be just as awful, but if they are they do a much better job of covering it up.

The thing I liked best about EQ itself was questing. It gave me something interesting to do (in theory, anyway. Sitting in Guk for a week waiting on Raster's ass was not my idea of a good time, or a good quest. After rotting down there for over a week of 6-12 hour days I said 'fuck it', and bought an idol off of Brin~).

Questing helped keep me focused too. Too much grinding, seeing how cool other classes I group with are, and my mind quickly begins turning to alts (which wouldn't have been so bad if EQ were more like CoH).

They did a passable job of it, for the most part (some quests were alright, some were excellent, but the majority were barely worth doing), and from the sound of it WoW is already doing a much better job in that department.

The idea that the majority of my leveling will be accomplished while I go about questing, almost as a side-effect, I find very attractive.
Not having to choose between XP grinding or advancing quests (which I like most, since questing is like reading a story, and what's the point of buying a book if you're just going to riffle through the pages, skimming here and there, yet never actually read the story it contains?).

I'm really looking forward to WoW going live, but I certainly won't mind if Blizzard feels like extending beta into next spring, if it means the game is that much more polished by launch. I'm through paying to beta-test games.

by **Lyion** » Sat Jul 17, 2004 9:36 pm

Taxx wrote:
The game is a treadmill with the whole point to spend exhorbitant amounts of time to get items and levels. Sound familiar?

Althought I respect your opinion, I'm curious. What level have you gotten to? Levelling in WoW is WAY easier than EQ if you thought that would ever be possible. With no death toll you can get to the level cap in a month your first time through if you play WoW as much as you played EQ.

Yes, levelling is simple, but my point is the game appears to be an level/item/epic encounter treadmill. If it isnt, thats great. Really, what in it is different from EQs core design Taxx?

I am a bad example in regards to levelling, in that I'm a powergamer. I outlevel 99% in any game.

I made 50 in EQ in 2 month. I was the first 50 Champ in DAOC serverwide and second on my server to 50. If I want to play WOW, I'm sure I could make 50 fast.

What does that have to do with my opinion the game is heading towards total EQ clonedom. You've played it longer than me, tell me if your experience is different.

I believe epic encounters will be well done, but will be in the 'spirit' of EQ. Levelling is similar to EQ. Quests are better, but similar to EQ.

I am not saying the game ISNT good. I think its excellent. I'm just saying its an EQ clone, with the crux of the game being killing things, levelling, and acquiring items.

Again, you've played more WOW than I have, so let me know if your opinion or experiences are different.

by **dammuzis** » Sat Jul 17, 2004 9:53 pm

its a blizzard game. when was the last time they did something orriginal?

by **vonkaar** » Sat Jul 17, 2004 11:01 pm

dammuzis wrote:its a blizzard game. when was the last time they did something orriginal?

are you kidding?

by **Zanchief** » Sat Jul 17, 2004 11:40 pm

vonkaar wrote:are you kidding?

by **Dylan** » Sat Jul 17, 2004 11:41 pm

Zanchief wrote:
vonkaar wrote:are you kidding?

I don't get it.

by **Drem** » Sun Jul 18, 2004 12:20 am

these topics are getting asinine.

stop saying 'treadmill' and stop expecting a huge dynamic storyline from an mmorpg. it's never going to happen.

my impressions of wow, though having never played it, puts it in a league of its own far far above everquest. the graphics, the deep lore that Azeroth has, etc. etc.

looks like a brilliant game and i think eq2 won't compare unless all you're looking for is pretty but boringly animated graphics.

by **brinstar** » Sun Jul 18, 2004 1:19 am

Treehorn wrote:The thing I liked best about EQ itself was questing. It gave me something interesting to do (in theory, anyway. Sitting in Guk for a week waiting on Raster's ass was not my idea of a good time, or a good quest. After rotting down there for over a week of 6-12 hour days I said 'fuck it', and bought an idol off of Brin~).

word homie

i bet klissar and i spent more time scouring kunark for greenmist clues when the quest was still broken than you spent camping mr. raster

as for how i got that idol, i was puller/tank for some LAH group that was mostly noob-ish TW real late at night, and the ranger is like "what is raster, he up~" and when nobody said anything i go "oh my buddy needs him for a quest, i'll BRB" so i trained everything on the way to the raster room and flopped, waited for aggro to clear, got up, got mobbed again, flopped, waited for aggro to clear, wasted that stupid fucker, killed my way back to the group and resumed my duties. the group was oblivious of what kind of score i had just made WHILE soaking up the exp from all their kills :D although if it was now instead of however long ago that was, i'd have given it to you for free hehe

but yea seriously, CABILIS FOR LIFE

by **Treehorn** » Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:30 am

Haha nice story.

Yeah, you are undoubtedly correct about doing Greenmist before it was finished as well.

Even though I spent something like a week solid camping him, I probably was only there for around 80 hours total. Longest, uninterrupted time I spent camping him was just over 24 hours.

I went in there just barely into 47, and left most of the way through 49, solely from killing light blue minos.

Thankfully, I had much better luck with Targin.
I was in SolB from 36 to 47, about two or three weeks total, but at least the XP was good. When I couldn't get a group for King/3's for Targin, I could solo kobolds elsewhere.

I spent a good week doing King/3's groups, having a blast and working on my pulling skills, and only had one Targin pop. I lost the random on the book to another monk in the group though.

Then, one day a week or so later, I was doing my window's solo thing, and someone trained king room on me. It took a second for my brain to register who this human guy that was hitting me was, and separating him out from the rest of the train was tricky, but eventually I got him alone.

I was only at 2/3 health or so when I started in on him, and mend was down, but I was way too excited to consider letting him go. Total adrenaline rush.

It was a great fight, and just when it looked like my hope of winning was completely lost, Mend refreshed. I was still under 15% health when I killed him, but it was an awesome fight. I had never been so thrilled to be trained.

by **Lyion** » Sun Jul 18, 2004 8:52 am

Drem wrote:these topics are getting asinine.

stop saying 'treadmill' and stop expecting a huge dynamic storyline from an mmorpg. it's never going to happen.

my impressions of wow, though having never played it, puts it in a league of its own far far above everquest. the graphics, the deep lore that Azeroth has, etc. etc.

looks like a brilliant game and i think eq2 won't compare unless all Yoyou're looking for is pretty but boringly animated graphics.

Whats wrong with hoping for new things and being upset WOW is a pure EQ clone?

My post is in relation to my thoughts on WOW. Yours comes straight from the 'I've never played it, but it will own because it's from Blizzard' realm.

I have no problems saying WOW is a good game, but as I've repeated the design document is probably almost verbatim what Brad Mcquaid used for the original EQ.

The game is a treadmill and levelquest type game. Feel free to bitch about EQ and praise a game that is essentially an upgraded version of it, but the truth of the matter is WOW is the real EQ2 so far.

I think a lot of people will dig it, but my simple point is I don't know if I want to do the EQ thing again, and that's really what WOW is.

by **dammuzis** » Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:06 am

ok blizzard and orriginality

warcraft/starcraft - no sorry been done before, blizzard did it best tho

diablo - hack and slash has been around for ages. ok take nethack give it really nice (for the time) graphics and poof diablo1

what other games? oh yeah lost vikings..... err no

by **Tossica** » Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:13 am

Blizzard has never made a game that held my attention for more than a couple of weeks.

by **Tacks** » Sun Jul 18, 2004 10:17 am

You're one of the 5% Tossica, congrats. Blizzard has some of the best selling games of all time.

by **Tossica** » Sun Jul 18, 2004 11:39 am

Taxx wrote:You're one of the 5% Tossica, congrats. Blizzard has some of the best selling games of all time.

That's about right. 95% of the population are borderline retarded.

by **dammuzis** » Sun Jul 18, 2004 11:43 am

If game sales equaled good games, the matrix would be one of the greatest games of all time. instead its a long boring repetative turd.

im not saying blizzard makes bad games, I just think they live of their reputation that they garnered off of the orriginal warcraft and diablo

by **Tacks** » Sun Jul 18, 2004 12:07 pm

You're right about sales figures but Blizzard's games sell well long after release, it's because the games are actually good. Starcraft has like a national holiday in Korea. It has parades and Dorito's bags and lunchboxes and tons of other shit. I'm not a fanboi but they make good quality games even if you're a fan of the genre or not you can't deny they polish the hell out of their games.

by **Lyion** » Sun Jul 18, 2004 12:39 pm

Taxx wrote:You're right about sales figures but Blizzard's games sell well long after release, it's because the games are actually good. Starcraft has like a national holiday in Korea. It has parades and Dorito's bags and lunchboxes and tons of other shit. I'm not a fanboi but they make good quality games even if you're a fan of the genre or not you can't deny they polish the hell out of their games.

Get off this tangent and answer the question!

Most people consider Blizzard an outstanding Game Dev company..

That said, this is their first MMORPG, made by a group that played a ton of EQ..

It is a very good game.. But like Starcraft was an RTS advanced type game, WOW is an upgrade of EQ that is pretty much a clone.

Outside of upgrades, how is WOW different than EQ?

by **Tacks** » Sun Jul 18, 2004 1:11 pm

It's nothing earth-shatteringly different than EQ but it does what EQ does and does it better. After all we wouldn't have wasted so much time in EQ if we didn't like the game right? Well WoW does things better and takes away a lot of the annoyances.

by **KaiineTN** » Sun Jul 18, 2004 1:53 pm

Lyion, I don't quite get where you're coming from.

The game is a treadmill with the whole point to spend exhorbitant amounts of time to get items and levels. Sound familiar?

Name an RPG that doesn't apply to? Single player RPG's have an end goal, but getting they will always require that same treadmill. That is what makes an RPG fun, for me at least - character progression.

why would anyone want to 'redo' Everquest? WOW is simply Everquest in a newer package.

How can you call WoW EQ in a newer package? That comment makes me think you have no experience with RPG's, which I know isn't the case. The only possible reasoning I can come up with is that they are of the same genre.

EQ did nothing revolutionary - saying a game is an EQ clone just because of its core RPG characteristics is stupid.

The EverQuest "experience" is unique in its own way, but at the same time it has copies most RPG's out there. It's just what an RPG is.

I'm just saying its an EQ clone, with the crux of the game being killing things, levelling, and acquiring items.

What RPG doesn't revolve around exp/items? If you don't like this, stop playing and give me your beta. ;p

Outside of upgrades, how is WOW different than EQ?

How are the Final Fantasy games different than EQ? Omgz EQ is a FF clone, just they upgraded how many people can play~!

It sounds like you don't enjoy the character progression that RPG's basically revolve around, but after going through it in several games, it's no surprise. But that is still no reason to call WoW and EQ clone simply because of the progression that is required. For being a beta tester, you state the obvious far too much. Everyone here knew WoW was like EQ - like RPG's - as far as leveling, and loots. That does not make it a clone in any way, at least from my point of view.

by **Zanchief** » Sun Jul 18, 2004 1:57 pm

Lyion wrote:Outside of upgrades, how is WOW different than EQ?

But by your standards Lyion, all other MMORPGs on the market right now, aside from Planetside, are all EQ clones. Every one of them falls into your "treadmill" category. Maybe you should reconsider investing time in the genre instead of keeping up hope that someone will make a single player game online that caters to your specific demands.

by **Lyion** » Sun Jul 18, 2004 4:44 pm

Zanchief wrote:
Lyion wrote:Outside of upgrades, how is WOW different than EQ?

But by your standards Lyion, all other MMORPGs on the parket right now, aside from Planetside, are all EQ clones. Every one of them falls into your "treadmill" category. Maybe you should reconsider investing time in the genre instead of keeping up hope that someone will make a single player game online that caters to your specific demands.

Again, answer the question, or get out of Dodge, hoser. All games have time sinks, but not all are EQ clones, or close to it.

Nothing you are saying is at all in reference to my posts. Do you have a point? Here's my post EQ experience..

I levelled several characters to 50 in DAOC. I suffered through a few months of Earth & Beyond. I played several months of Shadowbane and had a 50 Warrior. I still occasionally play Planetside. Brilliant game. I played Neocron for a few months.

Outside of DAOC, those games are very, very different. Star Wars Galaxies was nothing like Everquest and I spent a good amount of time playing it.. Prior to Everquest I played Ultima Online, with my Grandmaster Archer/Mage. Lately I've played Lineage 2, City of Heroes, and Horizons. I'd consider Horizons something of an EQ clone, but it was moreso a POS.

I have no qualms investing time in something NEW, as long as its entertaining and FRESH.

I do have problems with the same design recycled and I want the next generation of MMOs with Dynamic worlds, content, in depth storylines, and changing landscape to come out.

If they won't be out for 5 more years, then I'll gladly tinker with new games briefly, and leave when I realize they are snoozers with the same static boring bullshit I've done in the past.

If those static, boring, non changing single player worlds with several thousand people appeals to others who think its the greatest thing since sliced bread, good deal. Its just not what I'm looking for now a days.

Again, maybe I'm jaded, but I'd rather play something new than redo the EQ experience. From what I can ascertain, WOW is an upgraded version of the Everquest design. If that excites you, more power to ya.

I predict most MMO vets wont stay in WOW for the same reason they didn't stay in many of the other MMOs. Its not worth the time investment to essentially get to where they were in EQ/DAOC/SWG/etc, etc

Again, this is just my opinion based on a month of WOW beta and speaking to people.

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My opinions on WOW. I don't think it'll be the EQ killer.

My opinions on WOW. I don't think it'll be the EQ killer.

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