Good News for Arlos

[Zanchief]

I might be hateful but no less then you are and I'm no atheist.

So you would accept a hand out from the Church of Satan under the condition that you have to read their propaganda and have to have one of their churches built in your region? You're so narrow minded in all of your thinking Lyion. You can never see anything outside of your silly beliefs.

[Zanchief]

What was so bad about churches again?

So you would accept money from a church which you found morally repugnant?

[Lyion]

I think you are missing the point we are making in your zeal to make this a conservative vs. progressive issue.

A lot of the crux of the issue is something you are probably missing due to the structural differences in your country and ours.

Help should come from the states and local governments, and not from the Federal government.

Things mandated and done at the federal level are more expensive, have more overhead, and have less involvement from the people actually effected.

As a country, America was created in the spirit of Federalism, and with very limited centralized power. The problem we have today is the Fed is consolidating said power and trying to be everything to everyone. This is not effective and ends up with a bankrupt, ineffective government that ends up collapsing under the weight of the entitlement and hand outs that we cannot afford and which have no vision for the future.

So you would accept money from a church which you found morally repugnant?

No different from accepting cash from a government one finds morally repugnant. Tons of progressives who make silly salaries for the government have no qualms calling it evil, while they collect their checks from it.

[Zanchief]

I think you are missing the point we are making in your zeal to make this a conservative vs. progressive issue.

Not trying to do that at all. I'm just trying to get a straight answer out of you.

Yes or No, you'd be ok with a Church of Satan opening up right next to you and helping out your kids from time to time as long as they had to listen to sermons.

[Martrae]

I think you missed the line where I said if you didn't agree with your church you could leave it.

You can't leave the government.

[Zanchief]

I think you missed the line where I said if you didn't agree with your church you could leave it.

You can't leave the government.

Then you don't get any help. The government is impartial. I'm not going to get a straight answer out of you two, am I?

[Martrae]

Yes, because there's ever going to be an area where the only church is Satan worshippers.

You also missed my post about local communities. I never said churches should or would do it all.

[Zanchief]

Yes, because there's ever going to be an area where the only church is Satan worshippers.

Not quite as unrealistic as a world where humanity helps itself.

You also missed my post about local communities. I never said churches should or would do it all.

Hey that's a great dream, Marty, but its silly idealism. It's just not possible anymore.

[Lyion]

I think you are missing the point we are making in your zeal to make this a conservative vs. progressive issue.

Not trying to do that at all. I'm just trying to get a straight answer out of you.

Yes or No, you'd be ok with a Church of Satan opening up right next to you and helping out your kids from time to time as long as they had to listen to sermons.

First, most churches do not expect or require anything for the help they give out. Most just give help out. Period. I have no problems with churches I disagree with helping people. I have the choice of what my children do. The problem with the Fed is they can tell people what to do and add real strings to help that are legally binding.

Second, one does not have to take help from any group. This is the same as any organization, be it the Black Panthers, the KKK, or what not.

Finally, you are making it a black and white helping people versus not helping people issue redundantly in this thread without really giving a care to our reasonings, or the real economic impacts, or the simple truth regarding the way the American Federal Government operates.

[Zanchief]

Finally, you are making it a black and white helping people versus not helping people issue redundantly in this thread without really giving a care to our reasonings, or the real economic impacts, or the simple truth regarding the way the American Federal Government operates.

Silly me, Lyion, I didn't realize we were having a serious discussion about the real economic impact of dissolving the government and letting the good will of others take it's place. I'm sure the economy would prosper wonderfully.

All churches want something in return for their "charity".

[araby]

Finally, you are making it a black and white helping people versus not helping people issue redundantly in this thread without really giving a care to our reasonings, or the real economic impacts, or the simple truth regarding the way the American Federal Government operates.

Silly me, Lyion, I didn't realize we were having a serious discussion about the real economic impact of dissolving the government and letting the good will of others take it's place. I'm sure the economy would prosper wonderfully.

All churches want something in return for their "charity".

attendance?

[Zanchief]

Finally, you are making it a black and white helping people versus not helping people issue redundantly in this thread without really giving a care to our reasonings, or the real economic impacts, or the simple truth regarding the way the American Federal Government operates.

Silly me, Lyion, I didn't realize we were having a serious discussion about the real economic impact of dissolving the government and letting the good will of others take it's place. I'm sure the economy would prosper wonderfully.

All churches want something in return for their "charity".

attendance?

Sure, among other things.

[Lyion]

Finally, you are making it a black and white helping people versus not helping people issue redundantly in this thread without really giving a care to our reasonings, or the real economic impacts, or the simple truth regarding the way the American Federal Government operates.

Silly me, Lyion, I didn't realize we were having a serious discussion about the real economic impact of dissolving the government and letting the good will of others take it's place. I'm sure the economy would prosper wonderfully.

All churches want something in return for their "charity".

Your large involvement with any or several churches led you to this? Sorry, that's total BS.

Most help for nothing in return. Most members give and expect nothing. This is unlike those who want help for others but don't want to give it themselves, but 'magically' expect the government to do it.

Economically it's even simpler. Washington taxes 100 dollars, which they don't have, so they actually have to borrow 150 dollars from China for this. Then via the wonders of bureaucracy, about 10 dollars of that trickles back to the people who actually need it. Comparing that to local help that doesn't funnel to DCand then trickle back through inefficient means, there is no basis for argument.

[Zanchief]

Your large involvement with any or several churches led you to this? Sorry, that's total BS.

Most help for nothing in return. Most members give and expect nothing. This is unlike those who want help for others but don't want to give it themselves, but 'magically' expect the government to do it.

Not true at all. No church helps anyone without something in return. They will try and "help" them by bringing them into their church. You're telling me at church soup kitchens there isn't a peep about God? They send missionaries all over the world with the specific mandate to spread the word of God. That's agenda number one. Helping people along the way is number two.

Comparing that to local help that doesn't funnel to DCand then trickle back through inefficient means, there is no basis for argument.

Except they won’t get any help because the community will ignore them and they’ll all just die. That might be detrimental to the economy but you clearly no better than I do.

[Lyion]

What is amazing is your belief that the government is here to help. Local communities help each other. Governments help themselves. I guess the Canadian government has done a snowjob on a lot of people, and I'm amazed at the lack of comprehension on how local groups/churches help those in need. Again, do you have any first hand experience with how churches in America operate in this regard, or are you just speaking from something the CBC reported on, probably out of context in Africa?

Missionary work is not really equatable with local help at soup kitchens or homeless shelters. I volunteer at these places and I don't recall their being much in the realm of evangelism, just a lot of good people helping people.

Americans per capita give more time and money for charity than any country. Perhaps people in Canada would be and are screwed without government holding their hand, but I'm happy to say that isn't the case here. Then again, I'd wager most of the Americans here have done volunteer work and helped others, whereis the Canadians have not because I don't think it's expected like it is here.

Even with this, we have a massive entitlement system which is broken, and which needs to be overhauled in the spirit of Federalism to allow for smart and equitable use of funds, and without Federal intervention, spending money we do not have.

[Zanchief]

What is amazing is your belief that the government is here to help. Local communities help each other. Governments help themselves.

No, they really don't. The government is there to help you, if you don't like the way they do it vote for someone who will. If you don't like the people who are running, get in the race.

Communities don't really do much of anything to help people, as far as I can tell. Also, I sure wouldn't leave it up churches to decide who receives their charity and who doesn't.

[Harrison]

Your large involvement with any or several churches led you to this? Sorry, that's total BS.

Most help for nothing in return. Most members give and expect nothing. This is unlike those who want help for others but don't want to give it themselves, but 'magically' expect the government to do it.

Not true at all. No church helps anyone without something in return. They will try and "help" them by bringing them into their church. You're telling me at church soup kitchens there isn't a peep about God? They send missionaries all over the world with the specific mandate to spread the word of God. That's agenda number one. Helping people along the way is number two.

Comparing that to local help that doesn't funnel to DCand then trickle back through inefficient means, there is no basis for argument.

Except they won’t get any help because the community will ignore them and they’ll all just die. That might be detrimental to the economy but you clearly no better than I do.

You're ignoring the fact that these missionaries believe that spreading the word of God IS an attempt to help. Your negative views on this are irrelevant because these "strings" you're implying are nothing in comparison to the very tangible strings attached by a government.

OMG they're offering help, but also trying to help them spiritually?! What fucking assholes to give help with such evil strings attached!

You're a tool.

[Zanchief]

OMG they're offering help, but also trying to help them spiritually?! What fucking assholes to give help with such evil strings attached!

I'm glad you can be indifferent towards religious indoctrination. I wonder if you'd have the same opinion of we were talking about Muslim missionaries.

[Harrison]

No, because both mean absolutely nothing to me.

They want to go help the needy, and as their "string" attached, attempt to help them spiritually (in their minds) so be it. I see NO problems with this, and I can't for the life of me see why you do. (besides the fact you're an idiot)

[Lyion]

No, they really don't. The government is there to help you, if you don't like the way they do it vote for someone who will. If you don't like the people who are running, get in the race.

The government is there to tell you they are going to help you. That is a far cry from actual help. I have no problems with state and local governments helping, I just do not like a centralized approach to entitlements. It ends up being overtly wasteful and the help bang for the buck is atrocious. We end up helping money lenders in China, moreso than people here.

You trust politicians. I do not.

Communities don't really do much of anything to help people, as far as I can tell. Also, I sure wouldn't leave it up churches to decide who receives their charity and who doesn't.

Perhaps your country is different from here. As of now, despite ludicrous sums of cash being taxed for the government to 'help' people, most aid comes from the local communities, and from people in these communities.

[Zanchief]

As of now, despite ludicrous sums of cash being taxed for the government to 'help' people, most aid comes from the local communities, and from people in these communities.

You can't actually believe that.

[ClakarEQ]

No, they really don't. The government is there to help you, if you don't like the way they do it vote for someone who will. If you don't like the people who are running, get in the race.

The government is there to tell you they are going to help you. That is a far cry from actual help. I have no problems with state and local governments helping, I just do not like a centralized approach to entitlements. It ends up being overtly wasteful and the help bang for the buck is atrocious. We end up helping money lenders in China, moreso than people here.

You trust politicians. I do not.

Communities don't really do much of anything to help people, as far as I can tell. Also, I sure wouldn't leave it up churches to decide who receives their charity and who doesn't.

Perhaps your country is different from here. As of now, despite ludicrous sums of cash being taxed for the government to 'help' people, most aid comes from the local communities, and from people in these communities.

Why do you feel the local folks are more trustworthy and/or more effecient with your money? You realize the corruption at the big fish level is equally if not more corrupt at the local level. You are a systems guy, and IT guy, you know the benefit of a standard, one policy, etc. Why would you want 100's of local governments makeing who knows what kinds of decisions, when you could have 1 government to put down a blanket policy? You'll get screwed equally by both in the end.

The government is there to tell you they are going to help you..

That is the crux of the problem IMO, local or federal, unless you're rich your fucked anyway.

[Arlos]

I'll post more on this later, but some quick thoughts now.

One big problem with handling this on a local/state level is that there is no guarantee it would be funded THERE either. The same arguments you guys are making about federal funding for such programs can and would be made about funding them on the state and local level. Furthermore, what happens when different states have differing levels of funding/support per needy person? You'll see people starving or freezing to death some places, and there'll be an inevitable migration away from those spots and into the better funded states, which will inevitably over-saturate those places, beyond their ability to handle the influx.

You cannot depend on churches to handle it all, as the problem is simply beyond their scope, leaving aside the fact that churches always have strings attached. No, the problem is so big, and so widespread that the only POSSIBLE way you can begin to deal with it is on a federal level. Let the states run it themselves, fine, but they're going to NEED federal funding backing them to do it.

Lastly, whining for the country to go back to a loose confederation of what would effectively be almost nation-states at this date is about as useful as pissing upwind into a gale. This country hasn't been that in almost 150 years, since the Civil War proved once and for all where the real source of power was. (Remember, the Civil War began far more over a struggle between state's rights and the federal government than it did over freeing the slaves. The North didn't make freeing the slaves a condition until what, 2-3 years into the war.) You are not now, nor are you EVER going to turn the clock back 150 years to the antebellum period. So stop trying and work with reality, not what you wish was reality.

-Arlos

[Martrae]

Why do you feel the local folks are more trustworthy and/or more effecient with your money? You realize the corruption at the big fish level is equally if not more corrupt at the local level. You are a systems guy, and IT guy, you know the benefit of a standard, one policy, etc. Why would you want 100's of local governments makeing who knows what kinds of decisions, when you could have 1 government to put down a blanket policy? You'll get screwed equally by both in the end.

They are more efficient for the simple reason there are less of their hands the money goes thru before it reaches people. There are less people on the payroll, less red tape set in place by people who are unfamiliar with what each individual area needs, and a lot less hassle.

[Tikker]

churchies just love having the ability to discriminate against those not of the same faith