Ron Paul campaign progress report

[Narrock]

Don't forget Clinton also raised taxes quite a bit. That set people's teeth on edge.

clinton was, and still is, an asshole.

[Jay]

Don't forget Clinton also raised taxes quite a bit. That set people's teeth on edge.

clinton was, and still is, an asshole.

Maybe, but he was definately a kickass President with an approval rating that will prove it.

Anyways, I didn't come to argue Clinton issues with Mindia, I came to quote this:

The AP count showed McCain with 789 delegates. Former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney, who dropped out of the race last week, had 288. Huckabee had 241 and Texas Rep. Ron Paul had 14.

Like I said...

Looks like you all will be voting for John "Warchief Thrall" McCain.

[Martrae]

No...I won't

[Evermore]

Don't forget Clinton also raised taxes quite a bit. That set people's teeth on edge.

clinton was, and still is, an asshole.

Maybe, but he was definately a kickass President with an approval rating that will prove it.

Anyways, I didn't come to argue Clinton issues with Mindia, I came to quote this:

The AP count showed McCain with 789 delegates. Former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney, who dropped out of the race last week, had 288. Huckabee had 241 and Texas Rep. Ron Paul had 14.

Like I said...

Looks like you all will be voting for John "Warchief Thrall" McCain.

Never

[Gypsiyee]

You certainly wouldnt catch me voting for his warmongering ass. For me on the GOP it was Paul or nothing. It's interesting though, because a lot of die hard republicans (well, if you can call them that.. not many of them even know what it means to be a conservative) on base here won't vote for McCain, a lot of them are saying they just won't vote. Good on them though, because I'd prefer not to have someone contributing who refuses to vote "because I won't vote for McCain and I certainly won't vote for someone who represents terrorism and is a muslim who was sworn in on the Quran and turns his back on the flag" - I'm more than happy for that sort of ignorance to stay at home on election day

My vote will go with Obama (provided he wins the nomination) and if not, my vote will be a write in.

[Naethyn]

You certainly wouldnt catch me voting for his warmongering ass. For me on the GOP it was Paul or nothing. It's interesting though, because a lot of die hard republicans (well, if you can call them that.. not many of them even know what it means to be a conservative) on base here won't vote for McCain, a lot of them are saying they just won't vote. Good on them though, because I'd prefer not to have someone contributing who refuses to vote "because I won't vote for McCain and I certainly won't vote for someone who represents terrorism and is a muslim who was sworn in on the Quran and turns his back on the flag" - I'm more than happy for that sort of ignorance to stay at home on election day

My vote will go with Obama (provided he wins the nomination) and if not, my vote will be a write in.

Same boat

[Lyion]

I'm glad Mccain won the nomination. I'm happy the wingnuts do not like him, and I like the potential for him to get a lot of moderates and independents.

I'd prefer to see Hillary win because I think she's more easily beatable. Also, I think she see's the big picture moreso than the Obamessiah. I'll vote for her in the Ohio Primary and hopefully she'll win Ohio and Texas and get the nomination, and lose to Mccain in the fall. If she doesn't, I'd rather she win over Obama, although that's the lesser of two evils for me, since the potential to bankrupt this country with a democrat in the white house and full control of congress is scary, with the upcoming boomer retirement.

Everytime a person who never served says warmongering it reminds me of Grima Wormtongue from Lord of the Rings, lol. Mccain is an honorable man, but I guess the DNC partisanship hate rhetoric rubs off on some.

[Naethyn]

I'm glad Mccain won the nomination. I'm happy the wingnuts do not like him, and I like the potential for him to get a lot of moderates and independents.

I'd prefer to see Hillary win because I think she's more easily beatable. Also, I think she see's the big picture moreso than the Obamessiah. I'll vote for her in the Ohio Primary and hopefully she'll win Ohio and Texas and get the nomination, and lose to Mccain in the fall. If she doesn't, I'd rather she win over Obama, although that's the lesser of two evils for me, since the potential to bankrupt this country with a democrat in the white house and full control of congress is scary, with the upcoming boomer retirement.

Everytime a person who never served says warmongering it reminds me of Grima Wormtongue from Lord of the Rings, lol. Mccain is an honorable man, but I guess the DNC partisanship hate rhetoric rubs off on some.

So let me get this straight. You don't want Obama because you think he'd spend to much, yet he is for pulling us out of the war. And you are for McCain because you think he'd spend less, yet he is for keeping us in 100 years. Sometimes I think you just make these posts to "warmonger" the NT.

[Tossica]

Republicans that make less than $200K a year make me LOL.

[Lyion]

So let me get this straight. You don't want Obama because you think he'd spend to much, yet he is for pulling us out of the war. And you are for McCain because you think he'd spend less, yet he is for keeping us in 100 years. Sometimes I think you just make these posts to "warmonger" the NT.

First, the Iraq war is winding down. There is very little difference in regards to how the candidates will handle things. I don't like Obama being CINC and being responsible for the security of America. I think he's a fine senator and man, but he's a clueless n00b in regards to foreign policy. I'm interested in seeing how a Democrat handles FISA and other security issues, and despite the rhetoric about going after Al Qaeda, it'll be amusing to see if one gets elected how they'll handle delicate issues and not cowtow to the far left progressives.

I think so many here pretend to be idiots and ignore the facts, such as the 100 years Mccain referenced was similar to Japan, Europe, Korea, etc. Places we've been in that are secure and free and become great allies. Obviously it's not a 100 years war. Buy a clue for 100, Alex!

[Tossica]

I think so many here pretend to be idiots and ignore the facts, such as the 100 years Mccain referenced was similar to Japan, Europe, Korea, etc. Places we've been in that are secure and free and become great allies. Obviously it's not a 100 years war. Buy a clue for 100, Alex!

American soldiers don't die due to hostility on a daily basis in those other places. I don't think the American people would care so much if we had a base in Iraq that was not under attack.

[Lyion]

American soldiers don't die due to hostility on a daily basis in those other places. I don't think the American people would care so much if we had a base in Iraq that was not under attack.

Exactly. If you listen to Mccain's speeches, that's his point, also. However, just as we didn't leave Germany the day after Hitler died due to it being dangerous, the same holds true with Iraq.

If there are no casualties 2 years from now and we have a few small bases in Iraq, nobody will care.

Nobody cares about our base in Bahrain, or the military we have in Haifa, or Korea, or Cuba. Those are not safe places either.

There is a reason Iraq gets little news coverage. It's due to the situation there improving, hopefully to the point the Iraqi's will take over the rest of their provinces.

[Jay]

Sorry Lyion but if Bush couldn't bankrupt this country, no one can. Also, imo, if managing our deficit is anything like managing a business then liberal spending and circulation of funds is a good thing.

[Evermore]

face it we are doomed

[Naethyn]

I guess that all explains why the only anti war gop candidate received more money from active military than all the other candidates combined.

You can come up with whatever crazyness you want about how the Iraq situation is getting better because the media is reporting less on it? But clearly the people over there actually doing the job think differently - our soldiers and the Iraqi civilians are we "liberating" are still needlessly dieing.

ps. bring all the troops home from every foreign nation.

[Lyion]

I'm citing facts and reasoning. I understand a lot of young people like Ron Pauls message, and there are aspects of it I agree with, but I think if you look at military support, it's pretty wholeheartedly in Mccain's favor. Especially military leadership. Citing Internet fund drives does not a big deal make.

The people over there also do not agree with your reasoning. Neither do the Iraqi's. The military people overwhelmingly support finishing the mission in Iraq, versus withdrawing immediately. Even the Democratic candidates are against that, as Hillary has said she would do no more than 1 brigade a month, and would listen to the military commanders.

Also, you cite left wing demagogues, but the truth of thing's are the Iraqi's want American assistance and self govern themselves. They can tell us to leave anytime. The situation is improving which is why you don't see the left wing Partisans getting any traction on Iraq, and why more troops will come home over the next year as the country gets handed over.

The situation is dangerous, but is far better than a year ago. The real danger lies in Afghanistan, due to the nature of that country and the fact there are so many entities around it that are unstable with factions that wish freedom harm.

I respect anyone who wants isolationism and an end with U.S. foreign relations, but again we had years and years of that including a DNC President during the entire run up to 9/11. I personally do not want us to bury our heads in the sand and allow the world to do what it will, but thats simply my point of view.

[Naethyn]

War is delightful to those who have had no experience of it.

Commerce with All Nations, Alliance with None, Should be our Motto.

[KaiineTN]

I thought we did finish the mission. We got rid of Saddam and made sure there are no more WMD's.

As for what the Iraqi's want... They just want to live in peace, and for the most part they don't really care if that's under democracy or a dictator. Just as a lot of people in this country don't care for politics and government, I suspect it is same with the rest of the world. People just want to live out their lives.

[Tikker]

War is delightful to those who have had no experience of it.

Commerce with All Nations, Alliance with None, Should be our Motto.

you realize Lyion was in the navy, yes?

which arm of the military did you serve in?

oh that's right

you completely invalidated absolutely anything you might possibly have to say for the next 6 months

[Arlos]

All of my friends who are ex-military are even more rabidly anti-war than I am, including the guy that was on active duty in Iraq for the FIRST gulf war. Also, just because someone was in the military doesn't mean they actually saw war firsthand.

I kinda liked McCain in 2000, but not the 2008 version. First there was that completely intellectually dishonest stroll through Baghdad he did that he tried to pass off as "Hey, everything's spiffy now!" when he actually was in the green zone surrounded by 100+ troops. Then there was the way he eagerly fellated everyone he could find of the religious right to pander to their vote, even after what they did to him in the 2000 election, and his honestly expressed opinion at that time.

I suppose one plus side with McCain is at least he wouldn't stand for torture like Bush & Co. has. I can't even begin to imagine just how badly the Bush administration's embracing of torture as a tactic has damaged our moral standing in the world, and how badly our national reputation has been damaged and how long it will take to recover. Remember, immediately after WW2 we HUNG 8 Japanese prison guards for waterboarding our troops. Hung until dead dead dead. And now we're calling it a legitimate tactic? How much that revolts and disgusts me I can't even begin to express. I'd love to see the whole lot of them up on charges of crimes against humanity.

-Arlos

[Gaazy]

I have never served, but its still on the plate. I think my stupid fucking tourettes syndrome would keep me from doing anything that i could see myself doin, like rangers or anything like that. If a conflict came up like WW3 or something that I believe in, I would join at the drop of a hat. My utmost respect also goes to the men and women of the armed forces, no matter what conflict they are in. Now the people that send them to the conflift, thats different, but the military men and women themselves, thats different. Ive got a long line of military family heh. Grandaddy that just died a few months ago landed in France just after D-Day, and made his way most of the way through Europe. Grandpa on mom's side was in the Air Force about that time, just on a base somewhere in England. Great Uncle Bobby, who just died a few years back, was on the pacific front. He was in Iwo Jima, and some other major battle that I just cant name off the top of my head. He got both legs blown off, along with being shot twice in the chest and arm. God only knows how he made it out. He was so fucked up, he was sent to a hospital in VA, and i guess they los this tags or something, and he was so out of it they didnt get his name, so they sent a letter to his wife and my uncles saying he was dead. Month later, he shows up on the door step. Talk about a fuckin trip, I bet they fuckin wigged out.

[ClakarEQ]

Not trying to step into the middle of all of this but Lyion you made a statement that Obama doesn't have any exp. re: foreign policy, I don't disagree, but look at where the uber folks have gotten us regarding foreign policy, your fear of the unknown keeps you blind.

One thing I have found in my life is that most open minded folks that "I" have come across, are not republicans. The narrow focus, blinders on, fear of unknown attitude is stifling.

[Lyion]

By all means, step, step.

I agree that experience does not equate to good decision making. If that were the case, Rumsfeld would not have been such a disaster. Likewise, W was elected due to his successes in Texas and his desire to focus on domestic agendas. Unfortunately, today is a much different deal than 2000.

Most people have preconceived notions, and when we are talking commander in Chief, I personally want stability and trust, not too much open mindedness and false faith. When I was younger, I preferred fresh. Now, I'd rather be safe than have change for the sake of difference.

This may be open minded to you, and many others
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... 4URQ0B.DTL
To me, it isn't.... Is this ok?

Lots of Dems and Reps are close minded and on the fringes. The ones who seem to be the most open minded are those who have morals and beliefs, but also retain the ability to listen and analyze. I think a lot of what makes people seem close minded is they don't see our point of view. I'm sure I'm hugely close minded to someone like Arlos, while I feel he has a fixed worldview, as do many other progressives. Much of this is due to our environment and the factors in our life that have made us who we are.

[Arlos]

You know, if you had asked, I would have told you I am in no way in support of Berkeley's actions in this case. There was an even better op-ed on it from the Mercury news, the paper I far prefer to the Chronicle (which is who sponsors the SF-Gate website)

But while the council retreated on the symbolic aspect of its actions from Jan. 29 (it never was in a position to make the Marines leave), it ignored the practical -- giving a free parking space and noise permit once a week to the protest group Code Pink to harass people at the station; and encouraging people in the city to impede the Marines' recruiting mission.

Therein lies the intolerance and sense of moral superiority.

To illustrate, let's take a hypothetical scenario involving an equally controversial issue in a very different city far, far away. Let's assume for a moment there is a small, conservative city called Perkeley somewhere in Alabama. Say there's an abortion clinic in this city. The members of the Perkeley City Council all believe abortion is tantamount to murder and that Roe v. Wade represents an assault on the most defenseless among us. The City Council passes a resolution calling this abortion clinic and the people who work there "unwanted and uninvited" intruders and gives a free parking space and noise permit to a protest group called Code Black to harass people trying to enter that clinic.

After a national outcry, the Perkeley City Council changes the language of its motion to acknowledge that the abortion clinic has a right to operate in the city. But it reiterates that it "opposes the murder of unborn children in this city" and continues to encourage residents to impede the activities of that clinic. Code Black gets to keep its special parking place and noise permit.

I wonder what would be the reaction of the Berkeley City Council members who are trying to drive the recruiting station out of town upon learning of these events? More to the point, what would they do if Code Black came to Berkeley and tried to shut down an abortion clinic here?

If they would grant the anti-abortion activists the same encouragement and preferential free-speech treatment they have given Code Pink, I would take back what I said about them being agents of intolerance. But we all know what their reaction would be to Code Black, don't we?

I may disagree with people, but show me where, ever, I have tried to in any way deny people the right to speak their mind or vote their conscience. That is the thing with free speech: it doesn't just mean speech we agree with, it means ALL speech, no matter how much we may disagree or find it repugnant. However, my firm conviction that you or other people I disagree with have every right to speak your opinion does not in any way translate to me supporting people with your beliefs being elected to positions of power where they can ENACT those beliefs.

For our Commander in Chief, given the reprehensible mess the current one has made of it, I think ANY change would be positive; it could hardly be negative, as I doubt it could get any worse. Since I opposed the war in Iraq from day 1, I like Obama on this, as he likewise opposed it from day one, and encouraged concentrating on Afghanistan. (much as I did on here). I would much rather see someone who shares my opinion on the use of the national military be in charge of it than someone like McCain who has been rabidly pro-war. Still, as I said, at least with McCain (as compared to the present republican administration) I would know that torture would no longer be condoned, which is also highly important to me. (yes, I think it would no longer be condoned under either Obama or Hillary too, but under Romney (captain "Double Guantanamo") or Huckabee, on the other hand, I have no confidence in that.)

Perhaps I am different from my liberal/progressive brethren in that I don't want to dictate to anyone how they should live their life in the privacy of their own home. I don't think government has any business intruding into people's personal lives in any way, shape or form, as long as there is no coercion, everyone is of legal adult age, etc. I do NOT see such a sentiment coming from the right, however, with their "homosexuality is wrong" campaigns, or other bizarre religious based laws like Texas's ban on vibrators, "dry" counties, etc. What I AM for is personal freedoms, and societal safety nets to help the less fortunate, so that we don't have families (including small children) forced to live on the street, people dying or suffering needlessly due to lack of health care, the destruction of the middle class by the pandering to the uber-rich, etc. etc. etc.

If wanting everyone to have an equal chance of success, wanting kids and adults likewise not have to forego medical care because of poverty, for the government to stay out of people's private lives, and wanting everyone, regardless of race, sex, creed or orientation to be treated equally both under the law and by society makes me somehow a bad person, so be it, I'm a bad person. As for military concerns, I am hardly a pacifist, I supported the first gulf war and attacking afghanistan, but I am now and will always be against naked imperialistic expeditioneering like has happened with Iraq, and feel that the rise of globalization has reached the point that unilateral military action, except in the case of direct attack (like with Afghanistan) must be coordinated through the international community. (and not through a tiny group of nations we could browbeat or bribe into tepid support, like the "coalition of the willing" either, REAL international support)

So, Lyion, you believe what you want to believe, but once again you are dead wrong about where I'm coming from. Maybe you're right about other people on the left, I don't know, but you are dead wrong about me.

-Arlos

[ClakarEQ]

I have no problem with Berkeley doing that, they have every right, they completed a democratic process and have applied the outcome. Should they be punished since they are breaking a staute, yeah maybe, but this may not cause the desired outcome either, I can see that whole issue being a slippery slope.

As for close mindedness, yeah I agree they are all over they place, I just voiced my real life experience.

Arlos ninja'd me


I am NEENJA! -Arlos