Debate 3

[araby]

Regarding something big preventing the election from happening, there is rumor that the Republicans are sitting on something regarding Barack Obama's nationality and are waiting until the last week in October to release it.

[ClakarEQ]

Regarding something big preventing the election from happening, there is rumor that the Republicans are sitting on something regarding Barack Obama's nationality and are waiting until the last week in October to release it.

O rly

[araby]

I don't know if it's true, I'm just saying that's what I've heard.

We watched the debate last night with a debate party and one of the questions we came up with was, no matter who you're voting for, who appears to be more confident and clear and more appealing to the television? Of course the answer was Barack Obama, even among McCain voters, and I think the media truly pays so much more of a role in elections these days for this reason.

They were both successful last night though, in laying out definitive plans and pointing out their differences on health care, education and energy. They still managed to pull the "that simply not true" and "yes it is!" and I can't be bothered to figure it out from there.

[Evermore]

i dont care if his parents are german shepards. This country cannot have 4 more years of this...


oh and can you actually believe any more lies?

[ClakarEQ]

I thought McCain actually did a really good job up to a point. I still feel that he is so arrogant and disrespectful and I just don't see someone like that, how he acts, can be a real leader.

I found it comical regarding his response to the question of Palin running the country. And the other about who he will seek advice from regarding his inner circle.

I also find it very frustrating that he takes any part of what Obama says and takes it out of context. The abortion issue in particular backfired on McCain. Obama has it right IMO but McCain with his, frankly abnormal facial expressions, obvious disdain, etc and the counters regarding women voters, WOW, just WOW he really screwed up.

His continued inability to stay calm, level headed, grounded, etc IMO speaks volumes to the type of leader he isn't capable of being. He reminded me of when my 5 year old wanted attention at the dinner table, raising his hand and shaking it around, fidgeting around in his chair etc. (for a quick background on that last sentence, at dinner I ask each of the kids how school was, who they played with, what homework they have etc. I take turns asking them each a question, my youngest likes to interrupt so I had to lay down some rules that interruptions aren't allowed, so he gets all antsy in the pants when my older boy is talking LOL). McCain WAS my youngest son last night, he couldn't keep his mouth shut when it wasn't his turn and his face and body language was that of a 5 year old.

However he did call Obama out on some personal issues and I didn't feel Obama really dealt well with it. That said, I don't give a shit about what McCain was trying to tackle Obama on, I wanted to hear more of the medical packages and economic issues.

[Evermore]

i feel the same clarke it seemed he was more interested in bashing Obama then discussing the issues. Maybe thats because he realizes his platform doesnt hold water so well

[Martrae]

Both parties have lost their way. In their desire for votes the GOP has become more and more like the old democratic party while the democratic party has become more and more socialist. Both parties try to 'buy' votes by offering a huge variety of programs and benefits. Neither want to cut back spending, minimize government involvement into private lives, or take less from taxpayers.

Don't let them fool you. Neither side REALLY cares about the poor or anyone else for that matter. It's all about power and they keep that power by keeping the populace dependent upon them.

I disagree. I think both parties care for people, and believe their way is right.

They also are both lying and manipulative political machines. They are after the power.

The GOPs bigger problem is trying to sell themselves as the party of smaller government and less spending when they've spent the last 10 years doing the opposite. The Dems have been mostly out of power for 8 years. Closer to 16 if you count the fact they haven't controlled Congress and the Presidency since 1994.

It's interesting that even with the financial crisis, the Dems are still plowing through with their plans for big government next year. Obama wouldn't list one plan he'd cut. Pelosi has even stated she'll bring congress back to push through a 300 billion stimulus plan immediately. Given the current financial market crisis based on the subprime derivitives and Fannie/Freddie failures, it's amazing to hear, and if our electorate weren't unaware and ill informed, it should frighten them.

The next two years could be more interesting if the Dems get a 60 seat majority in the Senate.

I disagree with your disagreement. If they TRULY cared they'd think about the long term effects of what they do instead of immediate gains. If they can't envision what might possibly happen by their work then they shouldn't do it.

They wouldn't engage in legal plunder and they would put the needs of their own country before the needs of every else. (Legal plunder is any use of government that enriched one group of people at the expense of another, and which would be illegal if private individuals tried to carry it out themselves)

I don't see any of that happening.

[Arlos]

Except, Mart, not all economists agree with the libertarian ones you listen too on the bailout issue, for example. There's far from unanimity out there among the broader sector. Hell, look at Krugman, who is not only a professor of economics, he just won the NOBEL in economics, and he was most certainly supportive of some kind of bailout package.

So no, Ron Paul and those of his ilk are not the be-all and end-all of economic thought in this country, far from it. I would be willing to wager far more economists felt the bailout was a necessary step than there are from the libertarian groups decrying it. Sorry, but that's just the way it is. Yes, I know you agree with them, but there's no guarantee they're right and Krugman, et al are wrong, just like there's no guarantee the reverse is true.

Remember, the bailout money is SUPPOSED to be a loan, so theoretically the taxpayers will get paid back for what they are doing now. I understand your cynicism at that thought, but cynicism isn't always right either.

-Arlos

[Martrae]

Ron Paul's 'ilk' have studied economy extensively for over 100 years. They include SEVERAL Nobel winners who earned their prizes legitimately and not because it was politically motivated.

Yes, there ARE several other schools of thought....but they're the ones that have gotten us where we are at and I think that shows them to be faulty.

[Arlos]

Yeah, except that you seem to forget that the last time we had laissez faire unfettered capitalism, it gave us Hearst, Standard Oil and other monopolies, and all but wiped out the middle class, as the gulf between the richest of the rich and "everyone else" grew to a gap even wider than today. Then reformers like Teddy Roosevelt came along and enacted changes to correct the issue, and things stabilized for a while. Plus, when in our semi-recent history was America at its most prosperous, productive, and with the strongest middle class? The 1950s, when the New Deal changes to the economy were still in full effect.

What happened since the 1990s when the GOP deregulated everything, removed restrictions, and made us more into a turn-of-the-20th-century economic model? Boom, Middle class erosion, huge gap between richest and poorest, etc, exactly the same as last time. So, you'll pardon me if I prefer the set of rules that provided sustained prosperity and growth to EVERYONE, and gave us possibly the healthiest middle class this country has ever seen, and reject the ideas of those who want us to go back to the unfettered nonsense.

-Arlos

[Martrae]

Watch this and then we'll talk.

http://www.chrismartenson.com/crash-cou ... -inflation

[Arlos]

HAH! A fact check of McCain's claims about Obama's taxes, and if they would even effect "Joe the Plumber" finds that McCain was completely and totally talking out of his ass.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/15/smallbu ... tm?cnn=yes

-Arlos

[ClakarEQ]

This is funny:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27207215/
I bet because McCain has made this poor fellow a famous man, he'll loose his business all together, he isn't even licensed, nor is the current owner /forshame

[Naethyn]

Ron Paul before the bailout:



Ron Paul after the bailout:




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_School

[Diekan]

It dawned on me this morning that the GOP is NOT trying to throw the election.

What I now feel / believe is this: McCain and Co. are not putting forth their best effort, nor spending the money to combat the Obama campaign because they are simply depending on the undercurrent of racial prejudice that still flows in the veins of this country (with the older generation).

Those running his campaign are of the Baby-Boomer generation. They don’t think like us (those of in Gen X and Y). Their view on the American racial situation is vastly different from ours. Meaning, that while most of us really aren’t concerned with race – they are. It’s a product of their respective generational ideologies.

If it were Biden running first seat I think you’d see a completely different approach in respect to the McCain campaign. Moreover, I believe we’d see a different VP candidate as well.

Studies have shown that while college age and young adult voters tend to make the most noise during an election – they are the least likely to vote. While the elderly and older crowd DO vote in numbers – something I have mentioned before. I think it is possible and perhaps even probable that the McCain campaign knows this all too well and depending on the racial views of the older voters to pull him through in Nov. What they may not be counting on is that THIS election may prove different from the previous in that record number of “young” people may actually turn out to pull the lever.

[leah]

confession: this will be my first presidential election.

bush round 1 i was too young (didn't turn 18 until january) and bush round 2 i registered too late (something i was sure not to do this time around).

round 1, i would've voted for bush anyway b/c i was uber conservative in high school.

[Haylo]

Diekan, what a good post!

[ClakarEQ]

Diekan, what a good post!

I'm ashamed to say what he says could be true

10sun turned me onto the flobots some time back, they've got a few songs that really hit home regarding this. You don't have to look hard to see there are two Americas.

[brinstar]

round 1, i would've voted for bush anyway b/c i was uber conservative in high school.

no shit, you were totally lame

[Narrock]

Evermore said:

Mindia what are you going todo when McCain isnt elected? Cause after that debacle last night there is NO WAY he is.

Well Evermore, what can I do if that happens? If the majority of the electoral college wants a socialist asshole like Ol' Barry to redistribute our wealth and take of them... there's not much I can do about it. Anybody who votes for Obama has either got to be one lazy fuck who doesn't want to earn their own wealth and be the captain of their own ship, OR they must have a below-average IQ. Take your pick.

[brinstar]

lol you're dumb as shit

[10sun]

Evermore said:

Mindia what are you going todo when McCain isnt elected? Cause after that debacle last night there is NO WAY he is.

Well Evermore, what can I do if that happens? If the majority of the electoral college wants a socialist asshole like Ol' Barry to redistribute our wealth and take of them... there's not much I can do about it. Anybody who votes for Obama has either got to be one lazy fuck who doesn't want to earn their own wealth and be the captain of their own ship, OR they must have a below-average IQ. Take your pick.

lol

[Tossica]

Evermore said:

Mindia what are you going todo when McCain isnt elected? Cause after that debacle last night there is NO WAY he is.

Well Evermore, what can I do if that happens? If the majority of the electoral college wants a socialist asshole like Ol' Barry to redistribute our wealth and take of them... there's not much I can do about it. Anybody who votes for Obama has either got to be one lazy fuck who doesn't want to earn their own wealth and be the captain of their own ship, OR they must have a below-average IQ. Take your pick.

I'm voting for him and I've worked full time and supported myself since I was a kid. I have a decent career that I work hard at and I DJ at least 2 times a month as well. This month I have 9. yes nine gigs. I'm hardly lazy.

I hope I NEVER need government handouts but it's nice to know they are there for others that do need them. I don't mind paying for those programs as long as they are run efficiently with as much oversight and regulation as makes sense. I hope my son NEVER has to go to war but I respect and honor those that do and realize it's a necessary thing sometimes. I'm a pacifist and a diplomat first and my friends (many) FAR outnumber my enemies (none) but as a last resort I will fuck your shit up. I hope by the time my son gets to college, he can drive a cheap electric car and live a fairly green lifestyle for comparatively less than it would to not live that way. I want to have affordable health care for ALL US citizens, not just for me as I already have a decent plan but I know there are MILLIONS of people including children that are not so fortunate. I don't give a shit what you do with other consenting adults in the privacy of your own home. I want an end to the war on drugs. I don't care who you marry or live with and I could really care less if you call it marriage or not. I think a woman has the right to choose. I want your church OUT OF MY FUCKING HOUSE and I will respectfully return the favor. I enjoy music, film and the arts MUCH more than I do sports. I despise greed and think money IS the root of all evil and don't trust anyone that hoards more wealth than they could possibly spend in their lifetime. I think capitalism rules but there are far too many stupid and greedy people out there so there needs to be regulations in place for the safety and well being of those that don't choose to pursue riches. Oh, I'm also fairly intelligent, or so I've been told.

That's basically my view on some important things. There's no way I'm going to find a potential candidate that represents all of them but as long as some of the more important ones are covered, I can deal with a little slipperiness. I mean they ARE politicians after all! I believe Barack Obama is a good man that loves his children and his fellow human being as much as the next guy. I think he genuinely wants good things for the country. I think he and I agree on many of the things that are important to me. I think McCain is not an evil man, I just don't agree with him on most issues. I think he isn't offering us anything we haven't already seen and decided was a bad idea. It's more of the same BAD IDEAS people!

Fuck McCain. He's so fucking obvious, it's INSULTING to anyone who takes the time to really listen to what he says and think about it. How anyone could support the Retardlican ticket this time around is truly mind boggling.

[leah]

round 1, i would've voted for bush anyway b/c i was uber conservative in high school.

no shit, you were totally lame

uh, thanks?



mindia.

stop. fucking. calling him. BARRY.

FUCK.

[Diekan]

The redistribution of wealth is NOT the answer, nor is it a good thing. That’s not what this country was founded on and it simply does not work. But, whether you like it or not, Barry (just to aggravate leah) is a true to form socialist. And, this country does not need a bigger, more intrusive government than it already has.

This country was built on the idea of freedom and individual responsibility. Sadly, most Americans don’t have a clue of what freedom really means anymore. To them freedom is being able to decide what to eat for dinner and watch on TV. In this country YOU decide your own path. You can pursue any dream you so choose. I, like many people, grew up in poverty and worked my way to where I am now. I’ll be damned if I am going to sit back while socialist bureaucrat TAKES what I have EARNED to give it freely to some lethargic POS who refuses to so much as work a part time job. Now don’t get me wrong. I am well aware that there are good people out there who have fallen on hard times, who are legitimate in their need for assistance. I have NO problem with my tax money being used to help them through whatever dire situation they may find themselves. But, what I DO have a problem with are these second and third generation welfare recipients (both white and black) who have made an occupation of bilking the government.

Spreading the wealth is a horrible concept that worked wonders for the [former] Soviet Union. /note sarcasm. You have a RIGHT to keep what YOU earned, period. Whether someone is living in the ‘hood or a trailer park is a problem THEY need to address. There are MANY channels for success they CAN take advantage of. It’s not MY responsibility to hold their hand or to give them free money in the name of “fairness.” Fuck that.