Bush's "war" on terror comes to a sudden end

[Drem]

While Obama says he has no plans to diminish counterterrorism operations abroad, the notion that a president can circumvent long-standing U.S. laws simply by declaring war was halted by executive order in the Oval Office.

Key components of the secret structure developed under Bush are being swept away: The military's Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, facility, where the rights of habeas corpus and due process had been denied detainees, will close, and the CIA is now prohibited from maintaining its own overseas prisons. And in a broad swipe at the Bush administration's lawyers, Obama nullified every legal order and opinion on interrogations issued by any lawyer in the executive branch after Sept. 11, 2001.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/22/AR2009012203929.html

two days in office and he's already righting wrongs. /sighofrelief

[brinstar]

whoa

[Evermore]

/cheer boot fucking time

[Lueyen]

The devil will be in the details.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2008661453_gitmodetain23.html

[DangerPaul]

"He was released to Saudi Arabia in 2007 and passed through a Saudi rehabilitation program for former jihadists before resurfacing with al-Qaida in Yemen."
So, what is your point?

Some criminals that are paroled in the US go back to crime after release too. OMG TEH HORROR

[Arlos]

And some people who are guilty as hell get off scott free. See: OJ Simpson, re: murder of wife.

Expecting absolute perfection out of any human endeavor is ludicrous, really.

Now, look at how bad Gitmo damaged our itnernational reputation. Look at how badly torturing people damaged it. Look at how many people in the arab world joined up to fight us just because of things like Abu Ghraib and Gitmo and our reputation for torture. Then you add in all of the reams of testimony from expert interrogators that information extracted under torture is useless, as people will confess to anything just to make the torture stop. Look at those US airmen who were forced to recite anti-american slogans in vietnam, or the targets of the Inquisition who would confess to witchcraft. Furthermore, look at all the reports about how we got far better information using the army field manual techniques of rapport building, etc.

Then you'll see that closing Gitmo and disallowing the use of torture wasn't just the RIGHT decision to make, it was the ONLY decision to make.

Finally, finally, this country can begin to reclaim some of its former stake to the moral high ground.

-Arlos

[Lueyen]

"He was released to Saudi Arabia in 2007 and passed through a Saudi rehabilitation program for former jihadists before resurfacing with al-Qaida in Yemen."
So, what is your point?

Some criminals that are paroled in the US go back to crime after release too. OMG TEH HORROR

If you see no difference between and individual who robs a convenience store for drawer change and one who's goal in life is to create massive wide spread death and destruction for no other purpose then to make it happen then any point I make will be lost on you.

[Evermore]

Hi triel! I see you lurking


I cant say i agree with the closing as i dont think those deserve the same rights. They are combatants. illegal as they may be they are still combatants. imo anyway

[Harrison]

We'll maintain the moral high ground as long as murdering civilians by the scores isn't our fucking objective in life.

The shit I hear going on in Afghanistan from my friends makes me fucking sick. If we ever turn that evil, I'll gladly turn my rifle in the other direction.

We dunk people in water?! OMFG THE HORROR

[Arlos]

We hung people after World War 2 for doing that to our soldiers. Japanese guards, to be specific. Look it up.

-Arlos

[Harrison]

We also nuked two cities in Japan.

What exactly is everyone's fixation on the past that should dictate our actions wholly today?

Are we just as likely to nuke a city in war now because a president in the past has done so? I don't think so.

President to president, you can't hold the next responsible for the blunders of the last, or subsequently of those in the past either.

[Tossica]

We also nuked two cities in Japan.

What exactly is everyone's fixation on the past that should dictate our actions wholly today?

Are we just as likely to nuke a city in war now because a president in the past has done so? I don't think so.

President to president, you can't hold the next responsible for the blunders of the last, or subsequently of those in the past either.

Torturing people isn't cool. (period)

[Gypsiyee]

We also nuked two cities in Japan.

What exactly is everyone's fixation on the past that should dictate our actions wholly today?

Are we just as likely to nuke a city in war now because a president in the past has done so? I don't think so.

President to president, you can't hold the next responsible for the blunders of the last, or subsequently of those in the past either.

we use the past as dictation for our actions today because the past is nothing but a lesson from which we should learn.. I'm actually surprised you question that. If you put your hand on a burner and burn yourself, should another guy try it in 5 minutes just because he isn't you and it happened in the past?

cripes, man, what's the point in history if you don't learn from it and use it as a means for determining how you act in the future, be it changing or maintaining the same behavior.

as for waterboarding, I believe Arlos was saying that even we as Americans deemed it so inappropriate that we had people hung for it. That's the past. Currently, it's still being viewed as incredibly inappropriate by citizens of both areas. If the same was done to our American soldiers for killing innocent civilians overseas in this farce of a war, would you find that acceptable? Would you find it acceptable if it was done to you?

How do you regard the constitution if you're so keen on believing that the past is irrelevant today? You're sworn to protect that document - if you truly believe that we shouldn't let the past dictate how we behave, why would you swear to protect rights that were created for us 200 years ago?

[Harrison]

I don't have to believe in everything written in the constitution. It's much more complicated, and different, for everyone who takes the oath. It's personal.

we use the past as dictation for our actions today because the past is nothing but a lesson from which we should learn.. I'm actually surprised you question that. If you put your hand on a burner and burn yourself, should another guy try it in 5 minutes just because he isn't you and it happened in the past?

I just KNEW someone would poke in and spew this. Lol I'm tired of arguing already. I do better in person where I don't have to type and wait for a response and lose my direction. A lot less of what you're trying to convey gets lost in the transfer.

[Tossica]

I've been owned in two threads at the same time!

[Harrison]

*yawn* If you think so. That only pertained to this thread. Quite honestly it was the line about the constitution that got to me.

[leah]

i don't understand how it's ever ok for anyone to torture anyone else? why is that even a question?

[Tuggan]

It's all situational depending on circumstances. I can see a need for torture, that's not saying it would be the "right" thing to do.. but eh

[Drem]

i'm all about torturing..........





.......... griffith in the tower of rebirth, baby! the hawk has come down to earth!


sorry i just got to book 13 in berserk

[Harrison]

That shit is intense and seriously fucked-up at times. Disturbing a bit even...

[Tossica]

I imagine controlled drowning would be intense, seriously fucked up and rather disturbing as well. Good thing our government no longer advocates it's use.

[Harrison]

Wasn't talking about that, hippie.

I guarantee its use will continue regardless of some public denunciation.

[Tossica]

Wasn't talking about that, hippie.

I guarantee its use will continue regardless of some public denunciation.

I know you weren't talking about that, hence the "as well".

[ClakarEQ]

IMO torture is never the answer and there are reams of documents to prove that torture does NOT gain you more info and can actually make getting correct information nearly impossible.

Only good will come from the closing of G-Bay, that is one of the best things that Obama could have done. That isn't to say we should let everyone in the place go free and I don't believe that will happen, in fact I think it was already said that will NOT happen.

I don't think terrorist's kill without cause. They do what they do because they feel it is all they can do to stop what they feel is the devil himself (US in this case). While the tactics they use are terrible, and the things they preach are awful and wrong, they, in their own minds, are justified and are acting out what their God wants.

We just don't understand or comprehend how they could be "justified" in their actions, but again, in their mind, they are justified and acting out in the only way they know how. To them, we are the terrorists, we are the death bringers, the killers of innocence.

As for your local 7-11 armed robber compared to a jihadist that was "processed" and let go, so what. So fucking what, it is one person, or it is 20 people, or it is 500 people, it doesn't matter. There is no enemy that can change who WE are, I think it is critically important that we not lose ourselves and what it is we stand for.

Bush has stolen much from America and what we stand for. About time someone with moral and ethical strength turns the ship in the right direction.

Stop being affraid of what may happen.

[Nusk]

gitmo was always my reasoning that bush/cheney should be tried and convicted as war criminals... concentration camp that uses torture in a communist country... mostly because the things they were doing there are illegal in america. of course they say no american citizens were sent there but i really wonder if that is the truth and even if it isnt to me the constitution doesnt apply to american citizens. they are GOD given rights to all mankind and only tyrants endeavor to remove them