Gun Argument #957

[brinstar]

People are too much like sheep these days.

Fear authority, never question it...
Superman will come and save you. There is no need to take your safety into your own hands.
etc. etc.

ahh, a minilecture about questioning authority from a guy who took the armed services oath

nice

[Harrison]

Again, the attempted connection between the two is a stretch at most.

Doesn't change anything I said in the slightest.

[brinstar]

your perception of the irony is woefully dim

and of course it doesn't change anything you said in the slightest, it just makes it funnier

[Harrison]

I suppose the same could be said for the vegetarian argument. You're just painting it a different color because you choose to.

[Spazz]

Clak I have actually never been to a gun show. The guns I have i got at cabellas, the firing line , and this small shop on wayne road that is no longer there. Im not really sure on how easy it is to get a gun at a show i figured that they back ground check you there same as anywhere else. I stay away from gun shows becuase while i love me some guns i tend to be pretty liberal and being around a lot of gun owning republicans is a major fucking drag.

I think people have proven over and over again they are going to do as they do regardless of what barriers may be placed in front of them( guns and drugs make perfect examples). I think the drug war is the cause of most homicide in this country. It is political suicide to talk about the war on drugs and guns make an easy scape goat. If people really wanted to address violence in this country they would stop looking at guns and look into the drug trade and unemployment.


One last thing i want to say about guns is this. A lot of the time gun owners are there own worst enemy. Everyone is afraid of a ban on assault weapons so they are buying record numbers of aks and ars. Now the govt is looking at the spike in assault weapon purchases thinking civil rest is going to break out and thinking about starting a new assault weapon ban. Gun owners in thier hystaria are going to lead to the thing they fear.

P.s I dont want to hear any of that hulabaloo about " why would anyone need an assault weapon"

[Arlos]

See, here Gaazy and I agree again. Though, I don't know that I would require a mandatory safety course. Instead I would require passing a mandatory safety EXAM, including both a written exam and an actual hands-on component. That way, people who were raised around guns and already know safety wouldn't need to take and pay for a class they don't need, they could just take the test. I don't agree about making teaching firearms mandatory, though. There's lots of people who will never use a gun in their lives, so unless they're interested, there's no point.

-Arlos

[Spazz]

I think in grade school they should start teaching kids in the cafateria like the stranger danger programs. I think its more useful if we tought kids how to check the breech, drop the mag ,safety etc. You might not need a gun your family might not have them but that doesnt mean that a gun might not come into your kids life by accident at lil joeys house. Knowledge is the key to prevention.

Also you guys make it sound like to handle a gun you have to be a rocket scientist. Its really not that complicated to pick it up learn how it works and shoot at shit.

[brinstar]

I suppose the same could be said for the vegetarian argument. You're just painting it a different color because you choose to.

so what you're saying is "question authority unless authority tells you not to"?

[Harrison]

I voluntarily placed myself at the will of certain authorities.

This is not the same as people automatically swallowing any shit thrown their way via established "authority".

I.E. Doing whatever a cop tells you to do, right or wrong.

People are brought up in this country to just fucking take it. They almost never learn to stand up for themselves in any manner. It's disgusting.

[brinstar]

except that it completely IS automatically swallowing any shit thrown your way via established "authority"

I.E. doing whatever your CO tells you to do, right or wrong

you've voluntarily placed yourself in the ONE SITUATION where it is completely unacceptable to stand up for yourself in any matter


you've completely laid that option down at the feet of The Gov't, yet you're ridiculing people who don't realize they still have it?

how can you not see this? how can this not be the same thing?

[Harrison]

I chose to place some of my individualism aside.
I don't default to it because I'm a meek tool in every day life.

Edit: I think this is the second time I've explained this.

[DangerPaul]

was the shooter black?

[brinstar]

I chose to place some of my individualism aside.
I don't default to it because I'm a meek tool in every day life.

Edit: I think this is the second time I've explained this.

so realizing your capacity for individualism and then consciously giving it up is somehow better than not realizing you have that capacity in the first place?

and, from what you're saying, not only is it better, but it's so much better that you feel justified in mocking those who still have that capacity

and then to say that you are somehow NOT a tool, despite your complete lack of free will in the service???

no sir, when you took that oath that is EXACTLY what you became-- a tool of The Man, literally. that's the life you chose for yourself, and i have no problem with that-- but don't come in here and preach about questioning authority, because you have zero ground to stand on.

[KaiineTN]

That's more or less why I requested a discharge from the Army, because I couldn't deal with the authority structure.

[Harrison]

I chose to place some of my individualism aside.
I don't default to it because I'm a meek tool in every day life.

Edit: I think this is the second time I've explained this.

so realizing your capacity for individualism and then consciously giving it up is somehow better than not realizing you have that capacity in the first place?

and, from what you're saying, not only is it better, but it's so much better that you feel justified in mocking those who still have that capacity

Yes, I do feel it's better.

Past a certain age you should figure out, "Hey, why in the fuck am I always doing what people tell me to do?"

[DangerPaul]

was the shooter black?

Inquiring minds want to know !

[KaiineTN]

Are you referring to the shooter of my cousin? I don't know. My cousin was black, however. Possibly mixed, he wasn't dark. The adopted son of my Father's older sister.

[Lueyen]

Also you guys make it sound like to handle a gun you have to be a rocket scientist. Its really not that complicated to pick it up learn how it works and shoot at shit.

Spazz I agree with almost everything you've stated on the gun topics, except this to an extent. I grew up around firearms and hunting, there is quite a bit to take into consideration with hunting alone. Some of that knowledge can be gained by actual experience, but most of it is better off being taught. Think of it like driving and being told about hydroplaning. Even if you survive a hydroplane and get lucky and don't have an accident, you are far better off knowing about them when you learn to drive rather then finding out through experience. Transition from picking, using, carrying and storing a weapon in the context as a self defense weapon as opposed to one for hunting brings with it many aspects that aren't readily apparent. Driving a car isn't rocket science either, but most people are given some instruction when learning and there is testing and a licence required to operate one on public roads.

ClakarEQ I don't think the situation with Mexico will have a big impact with the exception that it will be used as another argument and justification for gun control, I doubt it will cause many people to change their minds either way. My knee jerk reaction, cartels like all other criminals are not going to quit obtaining guns because of their legality. Beyond that, we have a problem with illegal entrance into this country via the Mexican border. Mexico now has a similar problem. Perhaps instead of whining at us and expecting us to fix their border security they should commit resources to it themselves. You don't stand at your neighbors fence pissing through a knot hole in it and bitch to him about his dog crapping in your yard.

[Drem]

People are too much like sheep these days.

Fear authority, never question it...
Superman will come and save you. There is no need to take your safety into your own hands.
etc. etc.

I know you hate black people and hip hop and everything but DJ Premier put out a record about a year ago and his intro track was him talking about what you just said. About how every country except us stands up and all their people fight for their rights and for what they want, even if it's with their lives. And Americans are all just a bunch of government-whipped pussies that bend over constantly and have no motivation to do anything about it themselves other than crying and whining CONSTANTLY about the state of their country whilst at the same time doing absolutely nothing to change it except just waiting for the next round of elections.

everyone wants everything handed to them nowadays. nobody wants to do anything. everything's amazing right now and nobody's happy

[Jay]

I chose to place some of my individualism aside.
I don't default to it because I'm a meek tool in every day life.

Edit: I think this is the second time I've explained this.

so realizing your capacity for individualism and then consciously giving it up is somehow better than not realizing you have that capacity in the first place?

and, from what you're saying, not only is it better, but it's so much better that you feel justified in mocking those who still have that capacity

and then to say that you are somehow NOT a tool, despite your complete lack of free will in the service???

no sir, when you took that oath that is EXACTLY what you became-- a tool of The Man, literally. that's the life you chose for yourself, and i have no problem with that-- but don't come in here and preach about questioning authority, because you have zero ground to stand on.

I dunno Brin, I agree with both you and Harrison in some respects. Yeah, fear authority and never questioning it is a terrible thing. Yes, upon entry to the military he does give up a lot of his individuality and have to follow procedures but I don't agree it means he's totally giving up his individuality or freedom. Despite becoming a "tool for the man" (which btw, the man is designed to be a tool for the people in a perfect world) he has every right to refuse to do what his CO tells him to do, as long as he's willing to accept the consequences.

Authority is something that is granted by the people. As such, every single person has the right to question it as long as we are willing to bear consequences. Martin Luther King Jr. felt a lot of the rules in society were unjust during a time when it was commonplace to treat African Americans with less respect than a caucasian. He broke those rules and questioned authority, however, he dealt with the consequences of jailtime and arrests and did the work to question that authority, eventually changing it for the better. Questioning authority strengthens it. I question authority everyday that I feel it is unjust, however I live within the rules and am willing to deal with the consequences of stepping outside of those rules. On the same note, I will strictly follow the authority I feel is just, be it military procedures or just day to day life as an American.

so realizing your capacity for individualism and then consciously giving it up is somehow better than not realizing you have that capacity in the first place?

Yes it is. You can take back that individuality that you've given up anytime you want as long as you're willing to deal with the consequences. Not knowing that you have it tends to make you act accordingly because you're ignorant to the fact that you have a voice regardless of how you feel on the subject. The latter removes your choice and your capacity to take action.

[Harrison]

There might be a problem when Jay is getting my point in every thread on the board lol

[Jay]

Well, tbh, I tend to agree with a lot of stuff you say and we have a lot of opinions in common cept I'm a nice guy that's willing to elaborate my opinion for everyone and you're a jackass who thinks people that can't read your mind are idiots =P

[Harrison]

I'm more willing to discuss things when I don't have to wait around for a response. That and my patience is limited lately.

[brinstar]

Yes it is. You can take back that individuality that you've given up anytime you want as long as you're willing to deal with the consequences. Not knowing that you have it tends to make you act accordingly because you're ignorant to the fact that you have a voice regardless of how you feel on the subject. The latter removes your choice and your capacity to take action.

that's debatable, i guess, but i never said (or meant to imply) that it's somehow wrong or dishonorable to question authority-- far from it. in fact, i encourage it as much or more as you or harrison does/would.

however, the arrogance and self-righteousness with which this voluntarily-enlisted soldier (and all that that implies, specifically re: authority) chooses to mock "sheeple" (ugh what a scenester word) is an irony i will not endure silently. that, to me, is a case of "do as i say, not as i do"-- or, to rephrase something you said in the other thread, it's like saying "quit being racist, you nigger"

[Jay]

Yes it is. You can take back that individuality that you've given up anytime you want as long as you're willing to deal with the consequences. Not knowing that you have it tends to make you act accordingly because you're ignorant to the fact that you have a voice regardless of how you feel on the subject. The latter removes your choice and your capacity to take action.

that's debatable, i guess, but i never said (or meant to imply) that it's somehow wrong or dishonorable to question authority-- far from it. in fact, i encourage it as much or more as you or harrison does/would.

however, the arrogance and self-righteousness with which this voluntarily-enlisted soldier (and all that that implies, specifically re: authority) chooses to mock "sheeple" (ugh what a scenester word) is an irony i will not endure silently. that, to me, is a case of "do as i say, not as i do"-- or, to rephrase something you said in the other thread, it's like saying "quit being racist, you nigger"

Ok I get what you're saying. Party on Wayne.