Required purchase of health insurance?

[KaiineTN]

That intent with that statement is in regard to a direct tax on labor, ie, income tax, as the means by which you are giving up your property. Taxation in some form is certainly necessary for governments to operate, and I have no problems with many other forms of it.

[Gidan]

Why do you suggest that I not have the right to take on the risk of not carrying insurance? Why do you suggest that I should not be allowed to be responsible for myself in that regard?

How about I get a say in that choice of yours because if you do need medical attention, I am sure you wont be paying a dime for it so the only risk involved is with other peoples money not your own. Almost everyone at some time or another needs to seek medical attention. Choosing to take that so called risk to not be insured isn't a risk to you at all, you just help in the cycle that increases insurance premiums for everyone who does have it.

Your who argument basically comes down to it being an individuals responsibility to have their own health insurance, however what you are leaving out is that those who choose not to take on that responsibility either due to lack of money, refusal of insurance companies to insure them or just out right selfishness on their part hurt everyone else. They don't hurt themselves in any way, its only others that get hurt by this.

The whole point in this is that the Government will say it is your responsibility to get health insurance, just like you have been saying. However they will make it possible for those who can not afford it to get it as well as making it so that insurance companies cant simply reject everyone who they think they might actually have to pay out for to maximize prophits. It also makes it so that if you choose not to get your health insurance, it really is a risk to you, because now when you do need it, you will get stuck with paying for it and not everyone else around you who was responsible.

[Arlos]

Arlos, so requiring someone near poverty to purchase insurance or be fined (or forced into a public option?) is going to help them more than if they were free to choose whether to purchase it or not, and if they did, write it off?

Explain to me how being able to write off an expense YOU CANNOT AFFORD TO MAKE matters a fuck-all? Someone working part-time, or close to minimum wage isn't paying more than a tiny percentage of their income in tax. Not to mention, they usually are living paycheck to paycheck anyway, and CANNOT AFFORD insurance, even if they paid no taxes whatsoever!

How is that unclear?

-Arlos

[Drem]

but but but, freedom of choice, man! screw whatever makes sense!!!!!

[KaiineTN]

IN A MUCH QUOTED PASSAGE in his inaugural address, President
Kennedy said, "Ask not what your country can do for you -- ask
what you can do for your country." It is a striking sign of the
temper of our times that the controversy about this passage cen-
tered on its origin and not on its content. Neither half of the
statement expresses a relation between the citizen and his gov-
ernment that is worthy of the ideals of free men in a free society.
The paternalistic "what your country can do for you" implies
that government is the patron, the citizen the ward, a view
that is at odds with the free man's belief in his own responsibility
for his own destiny. The organismic, "what you can do for your
country" implies that government is the master or the deity, the
citizen, the servant or the votary. To the free man, the country
is the collection of individuals who compose it, not something
over and above them. He is proud of a common heritage and
loyal to common traditions. But he regards government as a
means, an instrumentality, neither a grantor of favors and gifts,
nor a master or god to be blindly worshipped and served. He
recognizes no national goal except as it is the consensus of the
goals that the citizens severally serve. He recognizes no national
purpose except as it is the consensus of the purposes for which
the citizens severally strive.

The free man will ask neither what his country can do for
him nor what he can do for his country. He will ask rather
"What can I and my compatriots do through government" to
help us discharge our individual responsibilities, to achieve our
several goals and purposes, and above all, to protect our free-
dom? And he will accompany this question with another: How
can we keep the government we create from becoming a Frank-
enstein that will destroy the very freedom we establish it to pro-
tect? Freedom is a rare and delicate plant. Our minds tell us,
and history confirms, that the great threat to freedom is the
concentration of power. Government is necessary to preserve our
freedom, it is an instrument through which we can exercise
our freedom; yet by concentrating power in political hands, it is
also a threat to freedom. Even though the men who wield this
power initially be of good will and even though they be not
corrupted by the power they exercise, the power will both attract
and form men of a different stamp.

How can we benefit from the promise of government while
avoiding the threat to freedom? Two broad principles embodied
in our Constitution give an answer that has preserved our free-
dom so far, though they have been violated repeatedly in prac-
tice while proclaimed as precept.

First, the scope of government must be limited. Its major func-
tion must be to protect our freedom both from the enemies out-
side our gates and from our fellow-citizens: to preserve law and
order, to enforce private contracts, to foster competitive markets.
Beyond this major function, government may enable us at times
to accomplish jointly what we would find it more difficult or
expensive to accomplish severally. However, any such use of gov-
ernment is fraught with danger. We should not and cannot
avoid using government in this way. But there should be a clear
and large balance of advantages before we do. By relying pri-
marily on voluntary co-operation and private enterprise, in both
economic and other activities, we can insure that the private sec-
tor is a check on the powers of the governmental sector and an
effective protection of freedom of speech, of religion, and of
thought.

The second broad principle is that government power must
be dispersed. If government is to exercise power, better in the
county than in the state, better in the state than in Washington.
If I do not like what my local community does, be it in sewage
disposal, or zoning, or schools, I can move to another local com-
munity, and though few may take this step, the mere possibility
acts as a check. If I do not like what my state does, I can move
to another. If I do not like what Washington imposes, I have few
alternatives in this world of jealous nations.

...

The preservation of freedom is the protective reason for limit-
ing and decentralizing governmental power. But there is also a
constructive reason. The great advances of civilization, whether
in architecture or painting, in science or literature, in industry or
agriculture, have never come from centralized government. Co-
lumbus did not set out to seek a new route to China in response
to a majority directive of a parliament, though he was partly
financed by an absolute monarch. Newton and Leibnitz; Ein-
stein and Bohr; Shakespeare, Milton, and Pasternak; Whitney,
McCormick, Edison, and Ford; Jane Addams, Florence Night-
ingale, and Albert Schweitzer; no one of these opened new fron-
tiers in human knowledge and understanding, in literature, in
technical possibilities, or in the relief of human misery in re-
sponse to governmental directives. Their achievements were the
product of individual genius, of strongly held minority views, of
a social climate permitting variety and diversity.

Government can never duplicate the variety and diversity of
individual action. At any moment in time, by imposing uniform
standards in housing, or nutrition, or clothing, government
could undoubtedly improve the level of living of many individ-
uals; by imposing uniform standards in schooling, road con-
struction, or sanitation, central government could undoubtedly
improve the level of performance in many local areas and per-
haps even on the average of all communities. But in the proc-
ess, government would replace progress by stagnation, it would
substitute uniform mediocrity for the variety essential for that
experimentation which can bring tomorrow's laggards above
today's mean.

I'm giving up on the healthcare debate. No one here is changing anyone else's minds. In the end, if the people want the government in control of healthcare, and to force me to purchase it, then that's what I'll have to do so long as I am living in this country. If things end up passing as currently proposed, I will never think that it was the right way to go about it (no matter how much good comes as a result), but that wont matter.

I sincerely hope whatever direction we go in produces good results both for individuals and the whole. I am not a greedy or selfish individual, I am only interested in protecting my, and your, right to be one.

[Tikker]

flink the martyr

[brinstar]

In conclusion, Brinstar thinks I am an asshole, and I think he is a douchebag.

son i've been called much worse by much better

hop along now, don't you have some work to not do?

[Arlos]

Normally I wouldn't post something from Kieth Olbermann, given how partisan he normally is. But this is different. I got this passed to me, and just read/watched his commentary on health care, and I was incredibly impressed. Yes, he rants, but not at the right, nor even the left. He rails against those who would perpetuate a system where who lives and who dies is based entirely upon the size of their pocketbook. Particularly chilling was the example near the end, where because of his job/position his father got the best possible care. But while he was at the hospital with his father, he ran into a childhood friend, who literally had been forced to sell nearly everything he owned, including the family farm, because his daughter was sick with Lyme disease. Also chilling was the point about how close the rate is between the increased mortality of the poor and uninsured vs the rich is now in this country to what it was in Dickens' England.

Please, I know it's long, but give this a read or fire up the video segments (there's like 4 or 5 in a row that'll play one after the other). http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/vp/ ... 9#33217642

Literally, according to a study by harvard, more people are dying each year right now because of lack of insurance than are being killed by kidney disease. More than 45,000 people a year. 122 every hour of every day. Someone's parent, someone's child, someone's spouse... How can we let ourselves get distracted over semantics and smokescreens and do nothing in the face of this? A single horrific tragedy that killed 5000 people 8 years ago in September changed this country forever, and mobilized us in a way we hadn't seen since WW2. (how it was directed is an issue I won't get into). How can we ignore a horrific tragedy that is killing NINE TIMES as many people EVERY year? How can we do nothing?

-Arlos

[Tikker]

How can we do nothing?

-Arlos

because a large chunk of you were brought up to be self centered spoiled mofakas

as long as you're ok, who gives a shit about the dude down the street

once he's dead, you can take his stuff

[ClakarEQ]

How can we do nothing?

-Arlos

because a large chunk of you were brought up to be self centered spoiled mofakas

as long as you're ok, who gives a shit about the dude down the street

once he's dead, you can take his stuff

/QFT

[Harrison]

On the other side of that coin, "No one gives a shit about me, so fuck them too." is another common viewpoint.

[Gypsiyee]

I think that's pretty much the same thing still, though. It's just typical American narcissistic martyrdom.

[Tikker]

I think that's pretty much the same thing still, though. It's just typical American narcissistic martyrdom.

that kind of thinking has been slowing creeping northwards in the last decade or 2 unfortunately

[Harrison]

It's not just Americans.

People in general are just pieces of shit.

[Gaazy]

I didnt read all those pages, too long.

Its not that I hate that everyone in this country will have insurance, its the fact that I myself have to pay for it. I believe everyone that works and attempts to contribute to our society deserves to not have to worry about how he can pay for his child's doctor bills, but it makes me literally sick to my stomach to think that my tax money will be going to pay for all the rejects. You know, the fucking people that are churning out baby after baby after baby for the extra government money, begging for handout after handout after handout and then complaining that its not enough. The ones that refuse to work because the government is taking care of them. Fucking leeches. They dont deserve a single penny of anything. They act like us, the working people, the contributors, owe them something because they are poor.

The guy down the road that lost his job at the mines and now works a million hours at McDonalds to support his family and keep his house and refuses to take the check and work deserves every penny, and I would more than gladly help him. But on down the road, the guy with 8 kids who hasnt had a job in 15 years and hasnt even made an attempt to find one, only sit around and bitch that there arent any jobs and the government doesnt give him enough, deserves to die without insurance.

[Tikker]

The guy down the road that lost his job at the mines and now works a million hours at McDonalds to support his family and keep his house and refuses to take the check and work deserves every penny, and I would more than gladly help him. But on down the road, the guy with 8 kids who hasnt had a job in 15 years and hasnt even made an attempt to find one, only sit around and bitch that there arent any jobs and the government doesnt give him enough, deserves to die without insurance.

i actually agree, but how the hell would you enforce this?

[Trielelvan]

The guy down the road that lost his job at the mines and now works a million hours at McDonalds to support his family and keep his house and refuses to take the check and work deserves every penny, and I would more than gladly help him. But on down the road, the guy with 8 kids who hasnt had a job in 15 years and hasnt even made an attempt to find one, only sit around and bitch that there arent any jobs and the government doesnt give him enough, deserves to die without insurance.

But do his kids? Does his wife who's been waitressing at the local truckstop restaurant making just over minimum wage, who's job just may offer insurance (not likely) at a price too high for them to afford, but making just enough to send their family over the max so as to be disqualified for current state insurance because they "make too much money" be punished as well?

I know how you feel Gaazy. People of that nature will always exist, and until we destroy Texas, put an iron curtain around it, toss in all the idiots that ought to have been neutered/spayed, and declare it open hunting season on the stupid, this situation will always be here. The problem is the current system fails good people trying to make it, but haven't quite gotten there yet, and they deserve better than that. We have to start somewhere.

[Gaazy]

I know I know. I wish there was something we could do. I wouldnt even know where to start. But godamnit, something has got to be done about these fucking handout begging dipshits. Always thinking we OWE them something because they dont have anything, but they arent willing to go out and get it. Maybe their kids dont deserve it? They are just gonna grow up with the same mindstate as their parents, thinking they are owed everything, and never to work for it, because thats what theyve been raised around. I bet if this country would stand and stop giving them all these godamn checks for doing nothing theyd get off their asses and find something to do, you can be damned sure of that. Theyre driving this wonderful country straight down the shitter.

I have a touch of the flu this week. Went to the doctor today and there were about 40 people in the waiting room. I said fuck it and left and figure ill let my motrim and nyquil do the trick. I cant imagine how fucking miserable going to the doctor will be when theres 300 crackheads in there with their little crackbaby kids running around everywhere. Constantly sick because they are too busy worrying about their fix to keep their home from being so filthy and halfway sanitary