Occupy Wall Street

[Spazz]

Hey, the Palestinians are doing the same thing, except their wacky movement is called "Occupy Israel."

I think you confused where you wanted to put israel and palestine in that sentence.

[Gypsiyee]

The problem is people look down upon blue collar careers, too.

Snobby college kids get out expecting to rake in 100k a year won't take a job welding, training provided. They snub their nose at it.

I don't disagree with that, but I think it's short-sighted to think that it accounts for the majority of the unemployed.

Liability. If anything happens, you can be assured it's directly or indirectly as a result of their altered state of mind, lessened reaction speeds, etc. I know *I* wouldn't want to work next to someone high as fuck, regardless of how well they handle it.

Well granted, I wouldn't want to work by them either if I knew they were high. If I didn't know they were, I probably wouldn't care either way since I wouldn't know and whatnot. I also get the liability thing. But personally, I'm of the opinion that what people do in their own time is their own business and I just don't think that every person who may or may not do recreational drugs should be classified as someone who's going to show up to work high. I drink on the weekends; that doesn't mean I'm going to go to work drunk.

Also, the bullshit about "funding terrorism" is nothing new and has been done by EVERY president. The question is whether they factored in the repercussions, or didn't.

I'm not sure if you're famililar with the Iran Contra Affair, but I'd suggest learning about it if you're not. Whether it's been done by every president is subjective and the degrees of the assistance will likely vary wildly depending on how that sentence is interpreted, but you'd be hard pressed to find a more deliberate and corrupt US funded stand-up of terrorism to the extent exhibited in the 80s.

I'm pretty sure that former members of the Reagan administration "funding and arming the rise of terrorism..." is a stretch, but it's a fact that this guy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Ayers is a personal friend of obama.

In light of your new demeanor, I'm going to return the favor in kind. The bolded text is untrue and has been debunked on a number of occasions.

The weather underground thing happened when the president was 8.. eight years old and was during a time of a lot of civil unrest and controversy in response to Vietnam. While his actions 40 years ago were awful, I'm not sure they can be compared to modern terrorism because that's comparing a marble to a boulder. Ayers is no longer the man he was at 20 something (people rarely are) and currently lives his life serving his community.

That's neither here nor there, though, because the notion of them being close friends is still categorically false. Yes, they know each other casually. Yes, they've served in the same philanthropic organizations that seek to benefit the community which they were both a part of. They lived in the same neighborhood. The president has called the actions of the weather underground, and I quote, "detestable." The two aren't close friends nor are they people who talk on a regular basis. That's been discussed to death and in a perfect world it would've died with the birther story ages ago.

[Harrison]

Im not saying people should be stoned as fuck at work What I am saying is people should be free to do as they please when not at work as long as they show up straight and do what is expected of them.

I agree entirely.

Despite how I sound, I am all for legalizing nearly everything within certain guidelines. I am also all for restricting what sort of jobs people CAN get based on what they are using, legal or not.

Legality has no bearing on my opinion.

[Narrock]

Hey, the Palestinians are doing the same thing, except their wacky movement is called "Occupy Israel."

I think you confused where you wanted to put israel and palestine in that sentence.

I hope, for the love of Christ, that you're kidding. Israel has done nothing but give them more and more and more land, and Palestine is never satisfied and demand even more land. And what kind of gratitude do the Palestinians show for what Israel has already given them? They fire rockets and kill innocent Israeli civilians, and earlier this year they snuck over the border in the middle of the night, and broke into a house and stabbed a Jewish family to death, including an infant. Fuck Palestine. I hope Israel finally gets fed up and lays a major smackdown on Palestine. You don't EVEN want to get me started on this one, because I guarantee Arlos will be stepping in again, and he has better things to do than be a referee. We have close family friends from Israel. Don't go there.

[Spazz]

Look up Rachel Corrie mindia you know the America girl that that your friends murdered .Yea israel is totally innocent of any wrong doing and its all those evil arabs fault. How bout the fact that they keep building settlements ? Neither one of them wants peace and a lot of people suffer due to they leaders being retarded.

In fact fuck israel up the ass. That country does nothing but create strife and cost us money. World would be a better place if all those assholes killed each other off.

[Narrock]

Look up Rachel Corrie mindia you know the America girl that that your friends murdered .Yea israel is totally innocent of any wrong doing and its all those evil arabs fault. How bout the fact that they keep building settlements ? Neither one of them wants peace and a lot of people suffer due to they leaders being retarded.

In fact fuck israel up the ass. That country does nothing but create strife and cost us money. World would be a better place if all those assholes killed each other off.

Hundreds of innocent lives have been lost due to the violence there... losses on both sides. However, if Palestine didn't push and push Israel, many of those people would still be alive today. My beef isn't with the Palestinian people, per say, but their government. When news got back about the murders that were committed by the Palestinians, they were cheering and partying in the streets. How would you like it if Mexico drove their tanks and military over the border and demanded California and Arizona because they say we stole it from them?

[Spazz]

If there is ever going to be peace in that region israel is going to have to give up a good chunk of land and live with a 2 state solution. If that doesnt happen the terror and israel is guilty of it as well will never stop and people will continue to die.

But im serious as far is israel goes fuck em. The IDF killed an american on purpose and than lied about it and as far as im concerned that makes them an enemy and it makes them deserve to be punished.

Heres my solution and im serious. Everyone play nice in the sandbox or no one gets to play in the sandbox. DOnt care whos guilty dont care who started it you guys work it out you all are getting punished. Give em a dead line and let em know that both are getting wiped the fuck out if they cant figure it out. I am seriously so sick of israel and the middle east in general that I never want to hear another god damn thing about the region as long as I live.

The people in israel gotta live somewhere and they are there .... the people in palestine gotta live somewhere and they are there ... Like I said im serious about that being the solution. If anyone is going to kill anyone its going to be us and you dont stop now and i mean right now we are declaring war on both of you. I think that would do more for the peace process than any talks or any negotiations.

[Narrock]

The Bible says that the arab nations are going to join and rise up against Israel... the battle of Armageddon, but God will intervene and wipe them all out, sparing Israel. The way things are looking, it's getting closer and closer. But I am on Israel's side on this.

[Spazz]

Well the bible is full of shit. Its a book of ancient Desert fairytales that shocks me to this day that people still believe it to be word for word true.

[Arlos]

Odd as it may seem for a non-christian like ME to be defending the bible... But a lot of the history recorded in there has been backed up with archaeological findings. Also, a great many of Jesus' actual teachings are things that anyone and everyone could and should live with. (Love your neighbor, treat others as you would like to be treated, protect the meek and children, etc.) The real problem is not the bible itself in any way. It's people who use the bible to justify whatever extreme position they happen to be taking. I mean, the KKK claim to be operating in accordance with the Bible, and truly believe it. I happen to think they're sick, crazy, and WRONG, but the problem is with THEM twisting the bible, not with the bible itself. The same applies to the Quran, where the extremists THERE are twisting it all out of recognition to support their hate.

Do I think that every word of the bible is the literal truth? No, of course not. Nor even do most highly religious people. After all, by a completely strict bible reading, the earth was created in 4004 BC, which is patently ridiculous, as we've found all sorts of evidence of human activity from before that, not to mention older fossils, rocks, etc. But there's a lot of good in the bible, regardless of what religion you are. Given that I'm not even christian, I don't believe in a lot of the spiritual teachings either. Hell, there's lots I am in extreme disagreement too, especially some of the old testament. (I don't think that eating shrimp & crab should be considered an abomination... *laugh*) That doesn't prevent me from respecting those that DO believe in christianity, though.

By all means, hate on the fanatics, blind dogma, and extremists, and the evil acts they commit in the name of the bible. But to hate the bible itself? Very short-sighted and silly.

-Arlos

[Spazz]

Come on arlos theres a lot of bad shit in the bible too. Slavery , Killing the first born , that whole job story , and a list that I could prolly go on all night. Theres bits of history in the bible but there is a fuck ton of horror as well.

[Spazz]

To take this back on topic ....

Is it lost on any commenters or blogs that this park is within feet of where almost 3000 of our countrymen perished on 9/11? I find it reprehensible that these occupiers are defacing what I consider hallowed ground. Day after day workers go there to rebuild what was lost on that day and contrast that with the OWS and it makes me sick. I spent many afternoons in that park when I worked at 2WTC And lost many friends and business associates that awful day. I am deeply pained By this entire movement. I know we all have the right to free assembly/speech but the Proximity to the WTC and the fact no one is really talking about it is deeply disturbing to me. Thank you.

Read more: http://www.myfoxny.com/dpp/news/unsanit ... z1aicHnn14

I saw that on the fox news site and busted out laughing. This kind of shit is why I have a hard time taking the right seriously

[brinstar]

alright here goes. i'm going to respond directly to the posts that are actually about OWS, beginning with Zanchief's, and i am going to ignore the tangential bullshit completely.

Since you brought it up a few times Brin, I thought I'd start my own thread.

Can you tell me exactly why these guys are protesting Wall Street? Do they not know how the system works?

It's like getting angry at the Heat because they have too many good players and win too many games when they're just playing by the rules they're given.

You want to fix the problem, head of to Washington. They're the ones who make the rules.

That's why I can never really get into these Liberal movements. They all seem to be run by morons and are usually not realistic at all.

they are protesting Wall Street because they know how the system works, and because it's not working how it's supposed to work. the commingling of economic and governmental power has reached an unsustainable level, to the point where our government is no longer for, by, and of the people - and our wealthy elites are nigh irreproachable. it was their greed, along with risky trading schemes akin to gambling, which crashed the economy in 2008 - yet their cronies in office threw them TARP (funded by the taxpayer, naturally) so they could restart their engines. once they were cranked back up into proper form, they paid back TARP (to the government, mind you, not to the taxpayers) and kept on rolling. the banks are once again hauling in record profits, but meanwhile the rest of the public are still scrambling to get back on their feet! through mountainous campaign contributions and a multi-billion-dollar lobbyist corps, Wall Street banks have bent policy into the most perverted of shapes: socialized risk with privatized gain.

it's not like getting angry at the Heat because they have too many good players and win too many games. it's like getting angry at the Heat because after years and years of having too many good players and winning too many games, they become such a profitable franchise that the team uses their market power as leverage on the NBA's governing body to change the rules in order to win more games and get even better players. when all the increased winning makes them even more popular and thus profitable, they offer a cut of those enormous contracts to the NBA body in exchange for even MORE favorable rules changes. pretty soon small-market teams have zero chance of ever winning the championship because the game is rigged. lol okay so it's not a perfect analogy, but the key here is "using success and power as leverage to change the rules favorably"

back to OWS - here's a quote from Thoreau: "There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root." Reps and Dems spew garbage alllll day long about "oh our government sucks because of X" or "if i'm elected i'll reverse the president's policies on Y" and everyone likes to blame the government for unemployment, unbalanced budget, taxes, blah blah blah when the government has simply become the branches. no, the single greatest cause of all these problems is the saturation of corporate and private money that has pervaded throughout our federal government. hence, what better place than Wall Street itself?

now, you're (technically) right about one thing - it's Washington that makes the rules. but these protesters (and i myself) believe that setting up in Washington is just more whacking away at branches. in order to get any real change to happen, attention needs to be called to the root of the problem.

all that being said, these movements have not as of yet produced any conceptual solutions - but that is entirely by design. the stated goal from the beginning has always been to express anger against those believed to be truly responsible for the current economic situation in America. more importantly though, the movement is asking that a fully democratic (note the lower-case d) conversation takes place on a national level in order to address the serious and legitimate questions they're raising about the current structural inseparability of economic power and government, and the injustices such a collusion imposes on its people.

if you're curious as to their grievances, i believe spazz already posted the olbermann video where he read the first official statement released from zuccotti park, but just to keep my thread clear of any glenn beck bullshit here is the actual text (and i will take the liberty to bold particularly relevant passages):

As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice, we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world can know that we are your allies.

As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments. We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known.

They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage.

They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.

They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one’s skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation.

They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.

They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless animals, and actively hide these practices.

They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.

They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.

They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay.

They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility.

They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.

They have sold our privacy as a commodity.

They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press.

They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit.

They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.

They have donated large sums of money to politicians, who are responsible for regulating them.

They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.

They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives or provide relief in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantial profit.

They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit.

They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.

They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.

They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad.

They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.

They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts.

To the people of the world: We, the New York City General Assembly occupying Wall Street in Liberty Square, urge you to assert your power.

Exercise your right to peaceably assemble; occupy public space; create a process to address the problems we face, and generate solutions accessible to everyone.

To all communities that take action and form groups in the spirit of direct democracy, we offer support, documentation, and all of the resources at our disposal.

Join us and make your voices heard!

the part that says "They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility" is obviously a direct reference to Citizens United v Federal Election Commission, a horrible violation of democracy which allows corporations, PACs and SuperPACs to donate unlimited amounts of money to political campaign funds anonymously. the SCOTUS ruled 5-4 in favor of Citizens United, despite serious ethical questions raised about Justice Thomas's wife being a million-dollar lobbyist for that very group (apparently they did not report that income, and now some House dems are looking into a way to enforce a retroactive recusal that would remove Thomas's tiebreaking vote and throw out the precedent altogether).

the part about oil holds special relevance for me because i am also currently involved with a fierce grassroots battle to prevent a huge export pipeline from being built through the Ogallala Aquifer, one of the largest underground freshwater lakes in the world and a source of clean water for millions of Americans. this pipeline would carry Diluted Bitumen, a particularly carcinogenic sludge, from the tar sands of Alberta all the way down to the Gulf Coast where it can be refined and sold on the international market. meanwhile the company who wants to build it and make a trillion dollars is telling Nebraskans that "oh sure ya it'll bring ya lotsa jobs and revenue, eh" and "oh yup sure you can reduce dependence on unfriendly foreign oil eh" when in fact neither are true

i feel pretty strongly about the rest of them as well, but these are the major ones for me. so yeah, zan, hopefully that makes things a little clearer.

Holy shit! I agree with Zan! LOL. I know you're addressing Brinstar, but I have to chime in. :p. I understand the frustration of these people, but they are going about it the wrong way. And if you've seen interviews with some of them... they dont even know why they're there. Lol.

the ridicule from the right baffles me. do you not realize that OWS is upset about like 75% of the stuff that first brought the Tea Party into existence (before it was bought out, of course)? alright, i get it, these aren't rich old white people - but seriously, the two movements have WAY more in common than they both would like to admit. as long as these two movements feel like they're enemies, the real power structure will only sweat a bit. but if they ever unite, hoooooly shit look out!

as for idiotic interviewees - let's be honest here. mainstream media (also bolded above for their complicity in divisiveness) just LOOOVES to pick out the dumbest person there and serve him or her up on a big shiny platter for viewers to devour and dismiss. leftist sources did it to the Tea Party, rightist sources are doing it to OWS, blah blah blah nothing ever changes.

not to mention - it was decided early on that OWS would not release demands, because it was/is believed that putting forth a set of demands would a) make it easy to dismiss the movement, but more importantly b) further legitimize a system perceived as broken, compromised, and corrupt. after much deliberation the above statement was finally released - and it was not a list of demands but a list of grievances with an invitation to join in the discussion of how to address them. inclusivity!!!

I fucking despise protestors who protest shit they can't even explain.

I get it. Life is fucking hard. But, you're going after the wrong people like Zan said.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/44888058

Thousands of vacant jobs, 14MILLION unemployed...

I'm currently going for my drug test for a possible second job right now, waiting on a call back on a third I may replace one of the others with. Jobs are out there. People don't want to work when they can mooch off unemployment for over a fucking year, with free health insurance, and welfare to boot.

see above re: explaining protests. any protest you see will have a small contingent of dumbasses who don't know what the fuck.

but as to your link to the job vacancy problem, may i redirect your attention to the schools? not only has our public school system, once the pride of the earth, taken a royal assfucking from years of neglect and cuts, but postsecondary education has become prohibitively expensive. in the last ten years alone, tuition at the University of Nebraska-Lincoln has gone up 114%. that is not a typo. here's a link to a graphic just released by collegescholarships.org - about 2/3 of the way down it addresses why tuition has increased "at twice the rate of inflation and four times the rate of wage growth" but the entire graphic in and of itself is a pretty terrifying read. hence the bolding above of the part about student debt.

oh, and saying "people don't want to work" is not just overly cynical, it's also mostly wrong. lots of people simply aren't qualified for these jobs. how do we change that? according to that very article, the pres/CEO of Siemens Corp. says "We need to invest in education and training to get people prepared to fill these high-skilled, high-wage jobs of the future." OMG FUNDING EDUCATION WHAT A CRAZY IDEA

what else is to blame? outsourcing (also from your article). why does outsourcing happen? unregulated capitalism.

let's also not forget: "The housing market crash has left many people with home loans owing financial institutions more than what their houses are worth, making it difficult for them to sell." a) who crashed the housing market? banks. b) again, not an issue of laziness.

I think I should clarify a few points. I don't blame Obama for this or the current government, it's just that if this is an issue you feel strongly about, you need to go about it the right way. Asking business' to be more ethical when it will cost their bottom-line is not realistic. It's simply not going to happen and all you'll be doing is punishing the good people by giving them an unfair disadvantage.

You need to change the rules if you want honest corporations. You want to stop cronyism and lobbying? The government is the only one who can do anything about it. These protest to nothing to address that. It’s a waste of time and it’s making an important movement look stupid.

i have to respectfully disagree. this important movement is squarely placing blame on the banksters who ran this country into the ground. if enough attention is drawn to the "men behind the curtain," the people will pay attention and start demanding that the rules be changed. elected officials will whine about it, but unless they want to stop being elected officials they will comply.

Or how about protestors shutting down the National Air and Space Museum in DC to protest the use of unmanned drones in the military? Regardless if they are right or wrong, marching on a museum is not the place to be proving your point. Instead their movement accomplishes nothing and they comes off looking like an aggressive mob.

glad you pointed that out. first of all, that was a different group altogether. there were a shitload of groups in DC that day. those at the museum were their own thing, there were a bunch of people there to testify at the final public hearing held by the US State Dept on the Keystone XL pipeline (including some friends of mine), and there were #occupyDC people around that kinda mixed in with both a little bit.

but more importantly, fucking this. "As far as anyone knew I was part of this cause — a cause that I had infiltrated the day before in order to mock and undermine in the pages of The American Spectator." what a prick.

uhhh holy fuck, wrung out all the Glenn-Beck's-Anus-flavored Haterade. let's just shorten it to "occupy obama"

OWS does not endorse or support any politician or political party whatsoever. the actions - or lack thereof - of Obama and the dems are just as much a part of the corrupt system being protested as the utter failings of Bush(es) or the corruption of the Koch brothers or Goldman Sachs etc.

Ok I'll just ignore the Glenn Beck lunacy about Obama's corruption since it's all just nonsense.

If you think a Republican president wouldn't have handled the economic crisis the same you, you're wrong. Obama was dealt a shitty hand right out of the gate and people have been killing him for it. If you want to look anywhere, look at the administration that was in power for 8 years before he stepped in. You need to spend to get out of a recession. He did that. Same thing happened here under a Conservative government. Get over it.

The reason most people are upset with Obama is because he hasn't been liberal enough.

the flip side of the blame game. yes, Dubya shot a Texas-sized hole in the federal budget with his criminal tax cuts, and yes, BO got stuck with the bill - but BO has let down millions of hopedrunk Americans in his own special set of ways as well. but that's another matter for another thread.

Apparently, they rather humans kill humans face to face.

perhaps you are missing a more subtle point here. the use of drones just makes it that much easier to dehumanize and then kill people, because they've been marginalized to the point where they're blips on a video game screen.

Maybe those darn arabs can make drones and we can have a Real Steel type war where no soldiers get killed. I think there's a Star Trek episode about this.

Obviously those people are nutty.

oh i'm sure at some point we'll sell them some. on the one hand that'd be great - wars could be decided based on which side had the best video gamers, and no one would have to die. but on the other hand, Korea would take over the world

In other words, you bought into the propaganda of the government-media complex. I don't blame you. A lot of people were duped into the same mindset.

including you, obviously. or do you somehow believe Fox News ISN'T part of the government-media complex? HAW, get real.

I think this is why they are pissed. I think a lot of the anger comes from the fact that the government is bought and paid for. Its not doing the liberals will its not doing the conservatives will its doing special interests will. People in this country are seriously pissed. We keep blaming bush and obama and this that and the other thing but the major issue is that the government is paid for and no longer serves us.

bingo, exactly. this is not a left/right issue, nor a bush/obama issue. it's a people/profits issue. anyone who tells you otherwise is an idiot or a shill.


hmmm.... blah blah blah, drugs, ayers, israel/palestine, more drugs, more israel palestine, oh fuck lol the bible, mmmm guess that's it. holy fuck you guys go off on tangents.


now that response time is done, here are some videos you should see:

a compare/contrast of BO and HRC praising the arab spring mixed with footage of american police beating and dragging the american autumn (this shit makes me want to cry and/or punch something):


two veteran marines at OWS, one is holding a sign that says "second time i've fought for my country, first time i've known my enemy." the interviewer tells them about Hannity's comments that protests are "unamerican". let's see what happens!


and some links

a link to a blog by a man watching the livestream with his daughter as over 700 peaceful demonstrators are arrested on the Brooklyn Bridge

WaPo story about "protest chaplains." here's a grab:

“We had a real desire for there to be a specifically Christian voice of protest,” said Egerstrom, an Episcopalian. “Advocating for the 99 percent is the same vision for the world that Christianity has, only rendered into secular language.”

While many of the religious elements of the Occupy movement have been spearheaded by laypeople and students organized through social media, more established clergy are starting to follow the lead of groups like the Protest Chaplains.

The Rev. Brian Merritt, senior pastor at the Palisades Community Church in Washington, started affiliating with the Occupy movement after delivering peanut butter to “Occupy K Street” demonstrators in Washington’s McPherson Square. He was surprised, however, when organizers asked to hold a “wholeness” worship service on behalf of the protesters.

“I was just really shocked,” Merritt said. “But God is so free, God can institute the church wherever God thinks the church can be.”

i was totes gonna post some photos but i can't find the really artful flickr stream of tuesday morning's raid on #occupyboston where US veterans were tossed around like rag dolls

so there you go. just spent 90 mins on this post. will have to post about my concerns/critiques some other time, i am going to squeeze in It's Always Sunny before bed

[Zanchief]

I think you're still missing my point, Brin. Wall Street or any corporation can only do what the government lets them get away with. To me, there are no ethics in business as long as you're not breaking the law. Your job is to make profit, that's it. You're role in society is not to make the economy better. It's not to create jobs. It's not to make things better for the middle class. Sometimes these things happen by accident, and sometimes they may even happen by design, but that is not your role.

If banks are making money hand over fist, that's not a bad thing. If banks are making money hand over fist and breaking the law, the federal government needs to step in. If banks are making money hand over fist and doing things that jeopardize the economy it's the governments role to step in and regulate. This is why the tea party movement is completely assbackwards. Free market does not work. You can't expect business do adhere to higher moral standards then just making money. This has never happened in the history of the world. If morals come up against profit and profit is legal, every business will opt for profit, and if you were a CEO you would do the same.

This needs to be resolved at the federal level. That's the only solution. I do think the danger here is grossly exaggerated. But I'm Canadian, and work for the federal government, so there's almost no chance I lose my job or get my salary reduced even if my government has no respect for the federal service. It's possible I'm downplaying the impact of this recession, but people get pissed when times are hard. I'm not saying people should stand pat and do nothing, but really things are pretty good. People will always say the sky is falling and the world is coming to an end because XYZ. My facebook is littered with morons constantly linking news stories that are almost entirely made up about some harmless chemical that they think is poisoning us, or some stupid conspiracy about big pharma. OMG a pharmaceutical company that cares about profits and doesn’t care about helping people? Guess what, that’s all of them. Get over it.

If these guys really want to effect change, the system is made for it. Get out there and vote for someone who will help them. That’s the way real change happens.

[Narrock]

Zan, profit is not the only reason for business to exist. Business does do something for the middle class, as well as all for socio-economic classes... they produce goods and services that society needs, and employ hundreds of thousands of people. As far as labeling big business as greedy and corrupt, is an ignorant stance, especially when basing it on a handful of corporations who truly ARE greedy and corrupt... they're not all like that.

[Zanchief]

I'm not saying all business are corrupt, I'm saying business only care about profit. This isn't a bad thing. It's what they need to do. Their impact on the economy is simply a by product of making money and is not of their concern at all.

Those who claim to be more ethical do it publically in order to pull in more profit from people who want to buy from an ethical company. If there was no such door for them to exploit, they would be doing something else to make money. Again, I'm not saying this because I have a problem with businesses. It's just the way of the world. This is why Flink and the rest of his Randian army are full of shit.

[Narrock]

Brin, you should consider submitting some of your writings to an organization you like in the print media. Heck, maybe you can pick up some extra cash as a freelance writer with a weekly column.

[brinstar]

mindia's right about big businesses not being inherently evil - which is why they're not protesting things like textile companies or auto manufacturers or whatever. yes, those businesses are profit-driven, and in this less-than-perfect world they are certainly less-than-100% mindful of how their business practices affect the general public, but they are obviously not the problem.

zan, let me try rephrasing this: OWS is specifically targeting Big Finance in an effort to draw enough attention to its misdeeds and outright corruption so that the People begin demanding actual policy change FROM their elected officials.

all the rest of their grievances are critical, yes, but the one single overarching outrage is how economic power has been allowed to usurp and replace true democracy.


(and actually mindia, i have volunteered for the Media Team of #occupylincoln, which kicks off tomorrow. there is talk of perhaps publishing a weekly newsletter or something that i'd love to write for, and it would be even cooler to be a recurring guest columnist in the local paper. thanks for the props!)

[leah]

i think he should consider running for some type of office someday.

[Narrock]

Np man, I calls it as I sees it. I'm vehemently opposed to most of your political leanings (hehe), but I recognize that you have a gift. I hope that deal pans out for you. Liberal political pundits and commentators in the media drive me me nuts when I listen to, watch, or read what they have to say, but I still like hearing what the point-of-view of the left is. I used to love watching the (formerly) "Hannity & Colmes" show, and sometimes I wished I could reach through my tv and choke Alan Colmes, but I still loved the guy and the show isn't the same without him.

[Narrock]

I think you guys should say "happy birthday" to Markarado in Cap's Alehouse, even though you may not like him. Everybody likes to hear that.

[Zanchief]

mindia's right about big businesses not being inherently evil

Who said anything about evil? They play by the rules they're given to achieve the goal they have set for themselves (profit).

This is the only object of having a business. Ask Jay if he would sacrifice profits for some perceived good. This is not evil, it is what they are supposed to do. If you don't like the rules, change them. This is not corruption.

[Gypsiyee]

I think what you're missing in the scope of this, though, is that yes--government needs to step in. Yes, government allowed it to get this way.

However.. there is a direct tie between businesses being protested and the government who allowed it to get this way. Essentially, the problem is that these businesses and those who profit from them have a significant advantage in determining the elections, and after Citizens United last year that got increasingly worse.

The mid-term elections last year saw record spending as a direct result of the ruling allowing undisclosed and essentially unlimited donations to campaigns. American Crossroads (Karl Rove's PAC that's directly tied to the Citizens United case) spent a quarter of a million dollars every day in October last year. Crossroads GPS, their other group that they have registered not as a political group but a non-profit corporation can take *their* income and donate it directly to the PAC to contribute to even more anonymity. By law, non-profit organizations cannot influence elections as their primary purpose, but that's *exactly* what Crossroads GPS does through the loophole that allows them to donate anonymously. That is corruption.

Individuals are no longer subject to caps on their donations. They cap out, then funnel money into PACs supporting the same candidate and no one ever has to put a name on the person who cheated the system. Let's take Mitt Romney, for example. 55 of his individual donors who capped out their legal donations make up 75% of the donors contributing to one of his Super PACs.

By allowing this type of practice to take place, you have businesses and special interests intricately intertwined into the threads of our government. Candidates need money for election, and so they shape their political outlook to those who can finance them because the biggest bucks give you the biggest chance of election. Why do candidates drop out of races? Lack of finances to continue. Your biggest donors are going to expect something in return for all that dough, and so those candidates have to re-evaluate their loyalty once elected to ensure they can keep the support of those donors. It's the golden rule of whoever has the gold makes the rule. Corporations now have a louder voice than individuals in US democracy.

Now, mind you--President Obama plays a role in this as well since he's the first president to ever turn down the public finance option so that he wasn't capped on campaign funds, and that decision has set a precedent for future elections. You combine that with Citizens United and you have a giant shit sandwich of *crazy* fucking money being thrown at the lawmakerswho are supposed to be serving the public. We're in a recession, and campaigns are spending more money than they ever have in history for re-election. Here's an idea.. if politicians are so worried about the economy, instead of spending a metric fuckton on ads and smear campaigns financed by the special interests that helped you get elected, why don't we take the billions spent on the campaign trail and funnel it back into the economy? I mean hell, if these "job creators" who aren't creating jobs have that money to spare on their favorite politician, certainly there's some economic growth potential that could develop from that money instead. So you have companies looking out for profits so that they can take those profits and give them to politicians to create even greater profits, and then you have politicians who take that money and shape their policy to accommodate the people who gave them the money.. and in the midst of it, what the hell happens to the other 90% of the country? Who's looking out for their interests?

So, would it make sense for #occupy to protest federal corruption instead? Sure it would. But it wouldn't be as effective because it'd fall on the deaf ears of those who've already been bought. Several incumbents no longer serve the people, but rather serve the corporations who can secure their careers for them. I mean, you'd like to think in a true democracy that money wouldn't speak louder than the voices of the people, but the reality is that it does. Just like business' primary goal is profits, a politician's primary goal is to stay in office... and now, those two go hand in hand more than ever and the supreme court--with the help of justices with a pretty clear conflict of interest--have ushered in the potential for another Watergate, which was the entire reason so many of the campaign finance regulations were established in the first place.

[brinstar]

If you don't like the rules, change them. This is not corruption.

<posting in non-eloquent "i'm at work" mode>

yes it is. Big Finance didn't like the rules that prevented it from even more profits, so it infiltrated government and got them changed. now We The People are fighting to change them back.

where's the disconnect? what aren't you getting?

[Narrock]

Arlos, I agree with a lot of what you say about the bible. What Spazz doesn't get is that even though there are horrid and brutal stories in the Bible, doesn't mean it's "full of shit." Yes, there have been some archaeological finds that validate things in the bible, most notably to me (and bone-chilling I might add) is Lennart Moller's discovery of coralized chariot wheels and axles at the bottom of the Red Sea... although there are people who are calling it a hoax (most likely atheists who can't handle the truth.) And then there's people like Vonkaar who say that the Council of Nicea decided what to leave in and take out if the Bible, and that it's been written and interpreted by hundreds of people so the end product we have today is far from the original texts, blah, blah, etc. Although *some* of that *may* be true, who is to say that the Holy Spirit wasn't talking through those men and directing them? http://www.finalfrontier.org.uk/index.p ... b=8&page=3