Ancient Confession Found

[Menelvir]

I guess the only thing I'd say is that human beings are rather known for inventing things, especially stories... And it's a little more interesting if you tie a little intrigue into it by throwing in a nervous government concerned with its own self-preservation.

But 'surprising' certainly isn't a word I would use to characterize it.

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http://www.prweb.com/releases/2013/10/prweb11201273.htm

Ancient Confession Found: 'We Invented Jesus Christ'

Biblical scholars will be appearing at the 'Covert Messiah' Conference at Conway Hall in London on the 19th of October to present this controversial discovery to the British public.

London (PRWEB UK) 8 October 2013

American Biblical scholar Joseph Atwill will be appearing before the British public for the first time in London on the 19th of October to present a controversial new discovery: ancient confessions recently uncovered now prove, according to Atwill, that the New Testament was written by first-century Roman aristocrats and that they fabricated the entire story of Jesus Christ. His presentation will be part of a one-day symposium entitled "Covert Messiah" at Conway Hall in Holborn (full details can be found at http://www.covertmessiah.com).

Although to many scholars his theory seems outlandish, and is sure to upset some believers, Atwill regards his evidence as conclusive and is confident its acceptance is only a matter of time. "I present my work with some ambivalence, as I do not want to directly cause Christians any harm," he acknowledges, "but this is important for our culture. Alert citizens need to know the truth about our past so we can understand how and why governments create false histories and false gods. They often do it to obtain a social order that is against the best interests of the common people."

Atwill asserts that Christianity did not really begin as a religion, but a sophisticated government project, a kind of propaganda exercise used to pacify the subjects of the Roman Empire. "Jewish sects in Palestine at the time, who were waiting for a prophesied warrior Messiah, were a constant source of violent insurrection during the first century," he explains. "When the Romans had exhausted conventional means of quashing rebellion, they switched to psychological warfare. They surmised that the way to stop the spread of zealous Jewish missionary activity was to create a competing belief system. That's when the 'peaceful' Messiah story was invented. Instead of inspiring warfare, this Messiah urged turn-the-other-cheek pacifism and encouraged Jews to 'give onto Caesar' and pay their taxes to Rome."

Was Jesus based on a real person from history? "The short answer is no," Atwill insists, "in fact he may be the only fictional character in literature whose entire life story can be traced to other sources. Once those sources are all laid bare, there's simply nothing left."

Atwill's most intriguing discovery came to him while he was studying "Wars of the Jews" by Josephus [the only surviving first-person historical account of first-century Judea] alongside the New Testament. "I started to notice a sequence of parallels between the two texts," he recounts. "Although it's been recognised by Christian scholars for centuries that the prophesies of Jesus appear to be fulfilled by what Josephus wrote about in the First Jewish-Roman war, I was seeing dozens more. What seems to have eluded many scholars is that the sequence of events and locations of Jesus ministry are more or less the same as the sequence of events and locations of the military campaign of [Emperor] Titus Flavius as described by Josephus. This is clear evidence of a deliberately constructed pattern. The biography of Jesus is actually constructed, tip to stern, on prior stories, but especially on the biography of a Roman Caesar."

How could this go unnoticed in the most scrutinised books of all time? "Many of the parallels are conceptual or poetic, so they aren't all immediately obvious. After all, the authors did not want the average believer to see what they were doing, but they did want the alert reader to see it. An educated Roman in the ruling class would probably have recognised the literary game being played." Atwill maintains he can demonstrate that "the Roman Caesars left us a kind of puzzle literature that was meant to be solved by future generations, and the solution to that puzzle is 'We invented Jesus Christ, and we're proud of it.'"

Is this the beginning of the end of Christianity? "Probably not," grants Atwill, "but what my work has done is give permission to many of those ready to leave the religion to make a clean break. We've got the evidence now to show exactly where the story of Jesus came from. Although Christianity can be a comfort to some, it can also be very damaging and repressive, an insidious form of mind control that has led to blind acceptance of serfdom, poverty, and war throughout history. To this day, especially in the United States, it is used to create support for war in the Middle East."

Atwill encourages skeptics to challenge him at Conway Hall, where after the presentations there is likely to be a lively Q&A session. Joining Mr.Atwill will be fellow scholar Kenneth Humphreys, author of the book "Jesus Never Existed."

Further information can be found at http://www.covertmessiah.com.

About Joseph Atwill: Joseph Atwill is the author of the best-selling book "Caesar's Messiah" and its upcoming sequel "The Single Strand."

[Ganzo]

This is not new information to my people

We have detailed accounts of all noted scholars and teachers of that time as it is time of such geniuses as Rabi Hillel and Rabi Akiva, time of organizing oral teachings into Mishna; where so many events were recorded into Talmud, yet no one bothered to note anything about supposed Machiach that many people followed and who was later executed. If these events took place wouldn't we record it at least as a story of a heretic, since we do have many of those throughout the millennia and they all are recorded.

There are also countless contradictions in the New Testament that no one ever bothers to explain, for example why does Gospel of Luke and the Gospel of Matthew have a different genealogy for JC? Also as a sub question: if Jewish genealogy is paternal and Machiach is supposed to descend from the line of King David, why show this genealogy leading to Joseph if Joseph was not JC's father but rather G'd was his father through immaculate conception?

There are so many of those that what this guy is saying is just another layer to pile up on top.

[Tikker]

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[Narrock]

This thread makes me chuckle

[Tossica]

This thread makes me chuckle

Because you realize what a fool you've been?

[Narrock]

This "ancient confession" is completely laughable and is nothing new. Christianity has been attacked and dismissed as a fairytale for years by atheists, radical Jews, other secular people, etc. I'm used to it and it doesn't affect my faith by even 1%.

[Tikker]

.

[Narrock]

It's nothing more than "concocted proof" and I'm smart enough to recognize it as such. You can fall for it if it makes you feel all warm n fuzzy inside though.

[Narrock]

Holy shit! Christians are committing mass suicide globally, and Christianity is falling apart everywhere based on this evidence given to us on a silver platter!!!!

[brinstar]

or maybe the message is more important than the context? that's my take anyway. go read matthew 25:31-46 and tell me it matters whether the whole thing was made up or not

[Narrock]

or maybe the message is more important than the context? that's my take anyway. go read matthew 25:31-46 and tell me it matters whether the whole thing was made up or not

Matthew 25:31-46

New International Version (NIV)
The Sheep and the Goats

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

The message is clear, and the King is Jesus. Ganzo, Tossica, and Tikker are basically saying that it's a moot point since now we have definitive "proof" that Jesus was nonexistent (which is utter nonsense, obviously).

[brinstar]

you completely missed my point. the idea of treating fellow humans with unqualified love and dignity is bigger and more enduring than a story, and it is more important than the person who may or may not have said it. my faith does not require jesus to have physically existed.

[Narrock]

you completely missed my point. the idea of treating fellow humans with unqualified love and dignity is bigger and more enduring than a story, and it is more important than the person who may or may not have said it. my faith does not require jesus to have physically existed.

I understood your point, and I agree to your point of "treating fellow humans with unqualified love and dignity is bigger and more enduring than a story," however, the aforementioned people are making a claim that is most likely concocted itself. I'm a Christian. My faith does require that Jesus existed, and it's not based on a "story" but rather based on eyewitness accounts, epistles, and other forms of evidence.

[brinstar]

sounds exhausting

[Narrock]

What's exhausting to me is that some people put so much energy and devotion into killing (disproving) Jesus, and they are relentless in that pursuit and will stop at nothing to advance their agenda. This so-called "proof" of Jesus' nonexistence isn't the first, nor will it be the last.

Oh, and one more thought on why my faith requires the existence of Jesus:

John 3:16
New International Version (NIV)
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

[Tikker]

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[Narrock]

Is that the flying spaghetti monster as an infant? lol

[brinstar]

What's exhausting to me is that some people put so much energy and devotion into killing (disproving) Jesus, and they are relentless in that pursuit and will stop at nothing to advance their agenda. This so-called "proof" of Jesus' nonexistence isn't the first, nor will it be the last.

and where is the proof of his existence? fourth-generation translations of works hastily scribbled down by migrant progressive activists who may have not even met him (paul certainly didn't)? if you are going to insist that the bible contains nothing but completely accurate eyewitness accounts recorded by nomads, and then in the same breath denounce as complete fabrication documents which date from the same period and were written by a people known for their historically-accurate records, i'd say the burden of proof is on you. what happens if/when you are presented with incontrovertible proof that invalidates the specific historical details which your faith requires? don't your options at that point funnel down into either a) deny empirical fact, or b) question your faith? what an unpalatable choice!

jesus-as-an-idea suffers from exactly none of those minefields. if i hopped in a wayback machine and visited ol Pontius himself in 34CE and he had no idea wtf i was talking about, absolutely nothing would change for me

[Narrock]

What's exhausting to me is that some people put so much energy and devotion into killing (disproving) Jesus, and they are relentless in that pursuit and will stop at nothing to advance their agenda. This so-called "proof" of Jesus' nonexistence isn't the first, nor will it be the last.

and where is the proof of his existence? fourth-generation translations of works hastily scribbled down by migrant progressive activists who may have not even met him (paul certainly didn't)? if you are going to insist that the bible contains nothing but completely accurate eyewitness accounts recorded by nomads, and then in the same breath denounce as complete fabrication documents which date from the same period and were written by a people known for their historically-accurate records, i'd say the burden of proof is on you. what happens if/when you are presented with incontrovertible proof that invalidates the specific historical details which your faith requires? don't your options at that point funnel down into either a) deny empirical fact, or b) question your faith? what an unpalatable choice!

jesus-as-an-idea suffers from exactly none of those minefields. if i hopped in a wayback machine and visited ol Pontius himself in 34CE and he had no idea wtf i was talking about, absolutely nothing would change for me

Way to exaggerate. A. I never said

...that the bible contains nothing but completely accurate eyewitness accounts recorded by nomads...

. I said there are eyewitness accounts to Jesus' miracles. B. The proof of His existence is in scripture, and my faith... so unless somebody can come up with "incontrovertible evidence" that disproves Jesus' existence, or disproves scripture, the burden of proof lies with them. Sounds to me like you've bought into it, and fell for it hook, line, and sinker. Again, not my problem.

[Tikker]

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[Narrock]

Dude.

You have to prove the evidence

It doesn't work that Jesus is real until disproved

It does to me, and to millions of other people

[Tikker]

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[Narrock]

This Joseph Atwill guy isn't even offering any real evidence, but merely a speculation of what he alleges happened (an atheists's wet dream), but there is ZERO evidence in his stupid claims. But go ahead and believe it, flying spaghetti monster boy. Just another asshole trying to make money off of gullible people. There's a sucker born every minute, and I'm not one of them.

[Tikker]

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[Narrock]

/facepalm I'm just gonna let this thread go... too much unbridled ignorance going on here.