Dem debates

[Tossica]

Decent, IMO.

O'Malley was good I thought. I had never heard of him. Webb and the other dude are history.

Clinton was a lot stronger than I expected but mostly because she has morphed once again and is now campaigning on all the same shit Bernie has been fighting for his entire life.

Bernie was great but didn't do enough to show how he is different than Clinton or Obama.

[brinstar]

hillz sounded good because she's more polished and rehearsed, but she lacked bernie's fire

bernie on the other hand lacked her polish, so that might hurt him with the lazy voters

o'malley was good, but yeah - webb and chafee should probably tap out

[Harrison]

O'Malley's closing statement was nothing short of perfection.

I didn't know he existed before last night, and he shot right to respected in my book.

Chafee is done. Webb is awesome, but he is too.

[brinstar]

you are dead on about o'malley's closing statement. "we might not agree on everything but at least we're not a big pack of shitheads" hahaha

interesting to read today about how all the major news media sites declared hillary the winner when bernie destroyed her on nearly every single poll and focus group - or you know, any attempt to measure the actual opinion of voters, rather than some windbag pundit

[Lyion]

Bunch of career politicians, just what we need. A draft dodging commie from New York who honeymooned in the Soviet Union as President, and has never held a real job. Winner there. If Hillary was any more inside DC, she'd be a fucking statue. O'Malley is despised in MD, his home state. There's a reason for that. Chaffee is a joke. His debate performance coupled with his flip flopping record make him below zero on a stage full of garbage.

There are so many good Dems, this group is the bottom of the barrel. Webb is the only one who doesn't scare me on foreign policy and 'gets it'. The rest will probably result in a scenario similar to Mad Max.

[brinstar]

lmfao did mindia hijack your account? "mad max" indeed

you sound like all those morons who keep wailing about how obama is destroying america. really? are you a homeless serf scrabbling across a blown-out wasteland while jackbooted thugs pursue the last remaining shreds of freedom you desperately cling to? no? shut the fuck up.

no surprise the only one of those five you can stomach is the creaky old soldier that has zero resonance with anyone under 60 and is basically a closet republican

bernie is the only 2016 candidate in EITHER party who would even take a stab at addressing the problems you like to whine about with the tax code and wall street corruption, but oh i guess you don't actually give any shits about that after all

nice consistency, clown

[Tossica]

Our country needs about 12-16yrs of Democratic Socialism right about now. Once we've reeled in all the financial assholes, rebuilt the infrastructure, revitalized the middle class and created another generation of well educated, motivated workers that aren't drowning in debt, the fuckheads can take over again and attempt to ruin it. I think at that point, once shit starts nose diving again, it will be clear that "their" way doesn't work and we can finally abandon the bullshit.

[Lyion]

I have no idea what Democratic Socialism entails. Does the state own everything? What's democratic? Is there any market, or is everything centrally planned a la pure socialism? Is there an apples to apples Democratic Socialist state we can evaluate to see how it's worked out?

I see thishttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism

Democratic socialism is defined[by whom?] as having a socialist economy in which the means of production are socially and collectively owned or controlled alongside a politically democratic system of government. The Cambridge Business English Dictionary defines democratic socialism as "a set of political beliefs and principles supporting equal opportunities for everyone, under a fairly elected parliament

I certainly agree with the idea that capitalism is bad, but I also believe it's the lesser of the evils of all the systems we currently see in the world. Socialist economies currently do not work, and I have a hard time imagining they will with our melting pot of various religions, people, and attitudes.

What's interesting is I think when we get to the point where most of our economy is automated by self driving vehicles, manufacturing, etc then we may be able to see a paradigm shift to a different form of ecomomy. I personally don't think it'll ever be socialism as it's never worked and requires strong central government which always corrupts and provides a gateway for either a dictatorship or other centralization of power, which even if done with the best of intentions still destroys the checks and balances required for real freedom and liberty.

There's certainly a better system out there. The problem is our current ruling class is entrenched in political warfare via wedge issues, and our lazy electorate are too busy either asking for handouts, or looking for tax breaks to care about anything that would really be reformative. The only way we'll enact real change is via a coup, but that is a path which would probably destroy our quality of life for decades, perhaps even forever.

[Harrison]

"asking for handouts"

Sigh.

Asking for our government to catch up to the rest of the civilized world isn't a handout.

[Lyion]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLdA1ikkoEc

People vote for immediate gratification instead of long term smart planning, or are focused on wedge issues. Half our country does not work. You can try to compare the US to a place like Denmark, but it's so absurd a comparison if you look at their homogenuous demographics, economy, resources, and tiny population it's a complete red herring. Most other European nations are having severe financial issues, and their quality of life and opportunity is far less than ours. I've lived in the UK. Give me the U.S., any day, thanks.

The biggest issue our country has right now is our entitlement system is geared to take money away from working age adults without a lot of savings or earnings potential and to give it to primarily very well off seniors. This is the largest issue we have, and it's only going to get worse when the boomers retire and our Entitlement costs buckle under the massive surge of new costs. Neither political party will touch this, due to the power seniors hold in the voting booth.

I'm all for single payer health care. I have been from day one. I have no idea why the Dems shoved through Obamacare.

It's too bad Ganzo isn't around. He could explain why any form of socialism is a bad idea far better than I could. Even 'Democratic Socialism' requires someone running the economy/work/etc.

[Tossica]

Democratically elected officials that have societies best interests in mind when leading. Socialized medicine, education, public works, etc and when necessary, JOBS. Many of these things we already have. We just need a bit more of it to balance out the greed of corporate American and its influence in government. When the private sector fails the people by eliminating meaningful work and funneling all of the money to the top, the only thing the people have left to fight with is the government.

[Lyion]

Societies best interests are very subjective, though. The 'Greater Good' has been the basis for most extremely large evils foisted on the human race. I have no doubt Karl Marx envisioned a grand society based on those very same principles that you are saying, Toss.

Again you aren't addressing the elephant in the room which is why so many working age adults are paying for wealthy seniors?

[brinstar]

speaking of which, still waiting for you to address the fact that progressive contribution levels based on income stop cold at $118,500. do you think it's fair that someone who makes $118,500/yr pays in the exact same amount as someone who makes $118,500,000/yr? are you somehow not aware that if the contribution levels scaled all the way up, social security programs would be self-contained until at least 2061? wouldn't that be an easy fix? wouldn't that save us from having to borrow money from other countries in order to honor the deal we made with our citizens? wouldn't that subsequent reduction in deficit boost us a long way toward balancing the budget (or at the very least save us from borrowing against our SS funds)? wouldn't that mostly reverse the current dynamic, which you complain is "working age adults paying for wealthy seniors"? or did reason.com already tell you these are all bad ideas?

[Tossica]

Societies best interests are very subjective, though. The 'Greater Good' has been the basis for most extremely large evils foisted on the human race. I have no doubt Karl Marx envisioned a grand society based on those very same principles that you are saying, Toss.

Again you aren't addressing the elephant in the room which is why so many working age adults are paying for wealthy seniors?

Well, good thing we have history to look back on. The US thrived with a strong middle class. The middle class has been destroyed by 40yrs of unchecked capitalism and greed. Reign in the greed and invest money that would go in to corporate welfare and the war machine in to creating good jobs for the middle class. Corporate America has shown us over and over again that what is good for society often times cuts in to profits. The rich get rich a bit slower but everyone else down the chain gets a chance to accumulate some wealth along the way. Most people don't need much.

[Reynaldo]

Unchecked earnings / salaries is one of the few issues that I definitely have a leftist view on.

Always use Disney as an example. No reason Iger should be raking in 30 mil a year plus whatever else on speaking engagements when the people who ARE Disney (the ride attendants / performers) bust their ass in the blazing sun all day for 7 bucks an hour.

Pro sports players same thing. Although they're usually dumb enough to funnel most (all) of their money back into the economy.

[Lyion]

We are of the same mind. Collective Bargaining and Unions disappearing combined with the 'Global' Economy and Cheap foreign workers has cratered the middle class. I'm amazed Disney and Edison can mass layoff US workers for people from India and nobody seems to care on either side. ABC/Disney is a liberal/democrat backed company, too.

Brin, what are you talking about? Social Security? Income taxes absolutely do not stop at 118k. Social Security stops there because returns are limited. Entitlement taxes are a horse of a different color.

[brinstar]

https://www.ssa.gov/planners/maxtax.html

When you have wages or self-employment income that is covered by Social Security, you pay Social Security taxes each year up to a maximum amount that is set by law. That amount has changed frequently over the years.

For 2015, the maximum amount of taxable earnings is $118,500.

"returns are limited"? only a cynic would consider allowing the elderly and infirm a dignified life without borrowing from other sources of income to be a "limited return"

[Lyion]

SSN is an account meant to provide returns based on what you contribute. It has morphed into something altogether different. The reason it caps is because you can't get more returns if you pay three times as much. It is not supposed to be a 'tax' for one to pay for 'others'. SSN has been raided for general fund spending for decades. Also, SSN's problems are changes to its setup, and the fact it was not built correctly. However, changes to it and other entitlement programs are demonized with little regard to facts or numbers.

The top tax rate right now is 39.6%. The problem we have are loopholes in this rate for the wealthy, and the lack of real hedge taxes. We should focus on fixing that, or in completely redoing SSN.

[Harrison]

I think we should start the change by hanging those responsible for our current situation.

Instead of letting them continue to fuck us all.

[Lyion]

I think we should start the change by hanging those responsible for our current situation.

Instead of letting them continue to fuck us all.

We have the opportunity to get rid of our representatives every two to four years. Amazingly, we keep voting in the same asshats, and it's the 'other' guys who are the problem!

[Harrison]

No, I meant every banking piece of shit from Bernanke on down.

It disgusts me that these people nearly crippled the entire country, and yet not one of them suffered a single hardship as a result.

That's fucking absurd. If they started popping up dead, I'd throw a party.

[brinstar]

okay, that may not be what SSN began as, but that's what it is - and if we can agree that it's being damaged/raided/underfunded, then we must agree that's the best way to repair it.

at any rate, it continues to be a mystery as to why a) congress, with it's single digit approval rating, still boasts a 90%+ reelection rate and b) people continue to (re)elect those who swear up and down that government is broken yet continue doing their damnedest to prove themselves right

there's a lot of shit wrong with govt, but it doesn't have to be that way. constant sponsored misinformation and partisan sideshows continue to fuel public apathy, resulting in abdication of the basic responsibilities of citizenship. it's a toxic brew, and it has led us far down a stupid path - maybe too far to find our way back