OK, another EQ2 design decision I don't understand

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Postby Donnel » Tue Nov 02, 2004 4:21 pm

legeriun wrote:I don't think that saved characters cost much size.

items, levels, race, class, flags, skill levels are probably all done with integers and booleans, which are typically 16 bits for an integer, and 1 bit for a boolean.


What you may not know is that each character also has one of 8-10 different positions for their ears, a ear size slider, a gauge determining how pointy their chin is, etc.

There are easily an extra 40 or so more "bits" that have to be saved just because of character appearance.

Storage space is probably going to be the official statement, and it's understandable, however at 50$ per box and most likely 15$ a month, I would think they could pony up for a little extra hardware and at least expand it to 4 per server.

But again, that's just me.
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Postby Arlos » Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:01 pm

Lyion, I have a friend who's a dev on EQ2 too. Notice, in all of what I've said about EQ2, I've never had a bad word to say about the people doing the actual developing and coding. I have just questioned some of the overall design decisions and the money drones like Smed.

Believe it or not, there ARE a lot of people who like to make a ton of alternate characters. I wasn't one of them, this policy wouldn't effect me at all, to be honest. However, it just seems to be a stupid design decision to completely remove the ability to try out multiple classes, without needing to delete characters you spent all the time getting up to the mid-20s to be able to actually experience what a class is like. You see alt-a-holics more in, say, COH, than you do in EQ, but it wasn't exactly rare in EQ1 either. You and I may not play that way, but is it a smart decision to eliminate it entirely, which alienates all those people who DO?

Also, it limits your ability to play on multiple servers. I truly don't understand why they'd need it to be 4 per account and not 4 per server. How exactly do you gain advantage by having more slots on a different server? Makes no sense to me.

Again, the only reason I've been able to see for why they WOULD do this, is the cynical one. They plan on either offering extra slots for an additional monthly fee, or plan on putting it into an expansion, to entice people to buy that expansion regardless of what else is in it. We've all seen what they've done to EQ1, would it surprise ANYONE if this was their motive? As I said before, this isn't something in the hands of the coders and developers, this is entirely on SOE corporate management, who are the ones I blame, not the guys in the trenches.

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Postby Lyion » Tue Nov 02, 2004 7:04 pm

Every post you make here is saying EQ2 is not a good game, Arlos.

Maybe its innocuous, but you praise WOW and attack EQ2, a game you have admitted to never even playing, so forgive me if I am skeptical. If you had any interest in EQ2 outside of attacking it, I'd be more willing to debate the game with you. As is, you come across as a WOW Fanbois.
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Postby runamonk » Tue Nov 02, 2004 7:05 pm

AdivinaDarkfyre wrote:I don't think four was random actually, if you think about it it makes sense.

There are four main character types to the game, perhaps they came up with the number that way.


Good point, I hadn't thought of that actually. It actually makes sense when you think of it in terms of one slot for each base class.
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Postby runamonk » Tue Nov 02, 2004 7:07 pm

Martrae wrote:Wasn't it Final Fantasy that had only 1 character and if you wanted more you had to pay?


Yes.
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Postby Harrison » Tue Nov 02, 2004 7:07 pm

Because each archetype is pretty similar in most respects, it's just more divided later on but essentially the same.
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Postby runamonk » Tue Nov 02, 2004 7:13 pm

Finawin Darkfyre wrote:Because each archetype is pretty similar in most respects, it's just more divided later on but essentially the same.


Yup. It'll be interesting to see what alot of people do. I just started reading through the plethora of faq information on the everquestII.com forums, interesting stuff.
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Postby 10sun » Tue Nov 02, 2004 7:40 pm

runamonk wrote:
AdivinaDarkfyre wrote:I don't think four was random actually, if you think about it it makes sense.

There are four main character types to the game, perhaps they came up with the number that way.


Good point, I hadn't thought of that actually. It actually makes sense when you think of it in terms of one slot for each base class.


Doesn't explain the limitation on multiple servers however... thats kinda fucked.

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well

Postby chanteez » Tue Nov 02, 2004 7:58 pm

i think the thought difference is this...

we have questioned things in wow in other forums elsewhere, knowing that a person who is a developer will take those questions into effect and give either a reason, or they take opinions into consideration and perhaps do a change.....

So we are used to posting in such manner. Some call it EQ2 bashing, some of us call it valid questions. Some of us would like to think that perhaps they will learn and listen to the players, as their track record isnt doing so well.

I personally would love to know why a game where i have to jump up in order to move out of a flat area in game, is being released a week later. And why when i get my graphics blinking when i have a decent machine. Why as arlos noted, am i limited to 4 characters when I know many who like to have more than 4 over all the servers.... etc etc

When i do find a complaint about wow, graphically/content etc wise i'll be sure to post it.
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Postby Lyion » Tue Nov 02, 2004 8:04 pm

You're a WOW fanbois, too. That's fine, but as long as everyone knows you think Sony eats babies and will slam the game just because it's from them, that's cool.

I have played EQ2 extensively, and haven't encountered the issues you have. Do I feel the game is ready for release? No. But neither is WOW, and I think both games are being released based on corporate pressure.
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Postby runamonk » Tue Nov 02, 2004 8:35 pm

10sun wrote:Doesn't explain the limitation on multiple servers however... thats kinda fucked.

-Adam


That is probably just what everyone is thinking a hardcoded limitation that was put in so they could charge for slot expansions at some point in the near future. *shrug*

It won't affect me in any way so I don't really care.
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Postby Treehorn » Tue Nov 02, 2004 9:10 pm

Hello, my name is Josh, and I'm an alt-a-holic~

I preferred to think of my condition as Alt-itis. I'd play one character devoutly for a few weeks/ months, and then I'd start to get that old, familiar itch. Maybe I was just getting burned out, and needed a change of pace, but most often is was because I had grouped with someone of X class, and was just so impressed that I wanted to try it myself.
At least in CoH, where there are so many different flavors of goodness to sample from, creating and leveling alts is easy enough (although repetitious. Wow, look at that, the exact same missions I've gotten on just about every single toon I've ever made. Imagine my complete surprise...), and they give you like 8 slots per server to toy with.

I can't tell you how many alts I've made only to delete them later, but there were always some that I couldn't stand the idea of deleting. I've tried just about every race/class combo at some point. Mostly, they got deleted before they got into their 30's or 40's, but that's just how it goes.

Hell, I've even made repeat alts. Remakes of old alts that I had made, lost interest in, deleted, and remade again a few months later. I've had at least 3 woody rangers, 3 halflings, 2 or 3 troll SK's, a couple gnome SK's, a few Iksar SK's (finally settled on one. May he rest in peace with his Greenmist forever. Amen), several iksar monks, 2 or 3 troll and iksar beasts, and at least one of the other races, before I finally settled on Iksar.

I stopped playing my monk a month after the nerf (it just wasn't... fun anymore). I stripped all of his droppables, and he sat un-used for over a year... until I got the mad urge to play him again, stripped some other alt to re-equip him, only to realize after a week why I had quit him in the first place, and began the cycle all over again. I probably did that 2 or 3 times. Even at the end, I still agonized over the decision to delete the poor fella. Out of all, he was my favorite, which made deleting hard, but also I still harbored some kind of pathetic hope that $OE might some day fix what they had done (and what absolutely fucking slays me is there are people who still believe that $OE will fix monks. Sure, they say they're currently evaluating the fix, but it's the same old string-along bullshit song and dance they've been singing for 3 years. I mean, come on, even in EQII they've already been "monked", and it's not even live yet :rofl: )

Once I started my beastlord's final incarnation, I knew that my mage was going to be mothballed for good (with the exception of maybe loggin him on for the odd summoned goodie here or there, or to be my spotter bitch in Kael or someplace), but I still could never bring myself to delete him, even if he hadn't seen any play since, like... Velious.

For the druid of my namesake, it was the same. Play for a while, get the itch, strip him to equip some alt, eventually lose interest in the alt, and come crawling back. Did that probably 5 times in 3 years on him alone.

Oh, and I've never had more than one slot designated to a bazaar mule. Usually, I'd just use an inactive character for that, since I always had a few of those :P
I really can't imagine any benefit a trader mule will have in EQII where there is no bazaar and you sell items out of your own home... I can see keeping trade supply mules (which you will probably be practically a necessity for tradeskillers, as there is even less inventory/ bank space than before, and you will be awash in trade ingredients unless they have radically altered how the system works) being made, but without a shared bank space it's either back to drop-and-grab transferring, or trusting someone to hold your shit for you. What a nightmare (again).

If I only had 4 slots to do all that shit (across all servers no less), it would mean completely scrapping characters I was attached to. Even if I didn't really log them on any more, I still liked seeing them there on my character roster, and looking at them I felt like I always re-gear them and go out and recapture that old feeling.

I didn't like a lot of their other design decisions, the Luclin 2.0 character models/animations, etc. already (nevermind the fact that I'm not ready just yet to go back to paying $OE for the privilege of beta tester another of their products. My asshole is still hasn't fully recovered from the last go around, although, to be fair, I knew what was happening, yet I kept paying...) but this one is a show stopper for me (as if the ass ream-age and ass-looking character models were not already).
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Postby Harrison » Wed Nov 03, 2004 12:00 am

"ass-looking character models"? Are we playing the same game here?
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Postby Naginataka » Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:22 am

I think he was talking about the luclin models.
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Postby Adivina » Wed Nov 03, 2004 10:49 am

I personally would love to know why a game where i have to jump up in order to move out of a flat area in game, is being released a week later. And why when i get my graphics blinking when i have a decent machine.


I have never had these problems, and neither have the other people I know from beta. I run the game with most options on very high, and have yet to have a problem. From the things you have said I think its problems with your computer, be it hardware, software, or bad drivers.
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dunno

Postby chanteez » Wed Nov 03, 2004 12:58 pm

I dont know why it happens, i have updated drivers... 2.66mhz computer , 768 ram, 9600 ati vid card etc etc... and game runs like crap for me.

No other games i have played had these issues, from ones kids play on it, to eq1, wow, guildwars etc....

like i said before... i based my opinion on personal experience... if eq2 worked better for me i wouldnt have those complaints....

and because someone has bad experience with one game over the other doesnt make them a fanboi, or in my case fangirl of a different game.

Afterall i had more fun in guildwars than i did in eq2.
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Postby Atalya » Wed Nov 03, 2004 2:59 pm

Martrae wrote:Wasn't it Final Fantasy that had only 1 character and if you wanted more you had to pay?


yes and that's why FFxi was a terrible game that honestly lacks in comparison to Earth 2280 AD or whatever that html game was
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Postby runamonk » Wed Nov 03, 2004 3:20 pm

Atalya wrote:
Martrae wrote:Wasn't it Final Fantasy that had only 1 character and if you wanted more you had to pay?


yes and that's why FFxi was a terrible game that honestly lacks in comparison to Earth 2280 AD or whatever that html game was


huh? That one feature didn't make FFXI a bad game, it had little to do with the game actually being bad. You didn't need multiple characters to try out each job in the game. You could switch at will and literally have multiple jobs (classes) by just changing your job it didn't cost you anything. What really ruined the game for people was the lack of creative content.
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Postby Harrison » Wed Nov 03, 2004 4:36 pm

That game had shitloads of potential.

It looked great, ran great, the system was awesome at almost every turn.

But...you had nothing to do but the same old shit over and over and over. THAT'S what killed it.
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Postby runamonk » Wed Nov 03, 2004 4:41 pm

Finawin Darkfyre wrote:That game had shitloads of potential.

It looked great, ran great, the system was awesome at almost every turn.

But...you had nothing to do but the same old shit over and over and over. THAT'S what killed it.


Yup, Yup and Fucking Yup. Technically you're always going to be doing the same things over and over again but at least pretend to make each enounter and zone unique.

I had alot of fun playing that game, I got to whore around with Taxx and a bunch of people who were gamer-a-holics from nameless. Mostly picked on this one poor guy in our linkshell. Taxx what was that guys name?
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Postby Atalya » Wed Nov 03, 2004 4:43 pm

i didn't say it was the only reason.. It was a terribly SHITTY game all around and that's why it's a terrible game. It was bad design bad development bad release bad grinding no end game shall i go on? All you Final fantasy nerds need to realize this was indeed a heaping pile of shiet.

And it's funny to see so far the main backers of wow in this argument are LoS members that have all probably been in the wow beta from the start. Wow imo is too cartoony.. If you 're the type that liked diablo and warcraft then that's probably the game for you. If you're the type that preferred an EQ style of game to diablo and warcraft then EQ2 is probably for you. And yes i have played both and WoW was nearly a cut and paste of DAOC in the early levels and quite personally i thought it was crap. Sure it runs nice and has some neat aspects but a game that i would play for 100 + days? Fuck no
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Postby runamonk » Wed Nov 03, 2004 4:50 pm

Atalya wrote:i didn't say it was the only reason.. I
And it's funny to see so far the main backers of wow in this argument are LoS members that have all probably been in the wow beta from the start. Wow imo is too cartoony.. If you 're the type that liked diablo and warcraft then that's probably the game for you. If you're the type that preferred an EQ style of game to diablo and warcraft then EQ2 is probably for you. And yes i have played both and WoW was nearly a cut and paste of DAOC in the early levels and quite personally i thought it was crap. Sure it runs nice and has some neat aspects but a game that i would play for 100 + days? Fuck no


yes and that's why FFxi was a terrible game


Technically yes you did say that.

t was a terribly SHITTY game all around and that's why it's a terrible game. It was bad design bad development bad release bad grinding no end game shall i go on?


Actually the development was pretty good and there were alot fewer bugs than I ever experienced in EQ or Horizons (haha).

All you Final fantasy nerds need to realize this was indeed a heaping pile of shiet.


I've never played any of the other final fantasy games. I don't know if I would agree that this is a steaming pile, it got old and boring for me so I stopped playing. There is still a huge fanbase playing this game. I would still be playing it if not for the lack of good non-repetitive content.

It's your *opinion* that this game sucks blah blah blah. The point is that's your opinion.
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Postby Atalya » Wed Nov 03, 2004 6:05 pm

yeah i re read that last part about the final fantasy nerds part and realized that was alittle on the offensive attack and probably shouldn't have been~ my bad Zennish~
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Postby Arlos » Wed Nov 03, 2004 6:11 pm

So far no one has come up with a single good reason for this design decision. A few have said it won't effect them at all, which is a perfectly viable personal opinion to have, but it still doesn't explain why they did this. Can anyone do that? Shouldn't matter what I think of SOE for you to come up with a reason, should it?

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Postby Lyion » Wed Nov 03, 2004 6:18 pm

Don't you have developer contacts at SOE, Arlos?

Do some fact finding for us, and let us know what he/she says.

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