Race and intelligence

[xaoshaen]

OK, Zan - I'll conceed that point IF you can answer this question for me:

What, then, causes black people to score lower on tests which are not racially biased?

The problem with this is that you're assuming a test isn't culturally biased. The concept of a 'racial bias' is fairly ridiculous on a test for the reasons I mentioned earlier, but cultural biases do exist, and are notoriously difficult to either prove or disprove.

[Langston]

... Xao, please, tell me how this is racially or culturally biased. This is question that you would see the likes of on EVERY IQ test:



Repeat the following numbers:


2, 4, 9, 3, 8, 0, 1, 5



Is it biased because I didn't say:


Yo, bitch, tell me da nummahs I be sayin' to you:

Toe, Foe, Nah, Tree, Aight, Zeruh, Wuh, Fie


Give me a fucking break. This is what I hate most about liberals - nothing but fucking excuses for everything.

[Zanchief]

You're a liberal now, Xao.

Congradulations.

[Snero]

you want to know possible other causes for low test scores? if the mothers don't take care of themselves when they are pregnent, if the kids don't get enough to eat and proper nutrition, having two parents must help, having positive role models, being encouraged to learn (and this has nothing to do with the man keeping them down), did you actually read the article? there was more then a few examples given, where it was clearly stated that not everybody was in agreement with this kind of a leap.

To say something like that is a fact, that it's genetics, basic on this kind of evidence, is dead wrong. There could be more then 1 reason as to why this kind of a judgement has been made, could easily have been racism, but i would more tend to think it was the search to make a sensational article, if this study had simply said black people are dumber, then he would really have had nothing worthwhile on his hands, and nobody would have payed attention to it.

[10sun]

In my experiences, black people ARE less intelligent.

Maybe it's because they're all unfortunate souls who just happen to be poor...

Wait, no...

I was poor as fuck too. I never had that excuse. I'm fucking white...

I'm going back to bed because I'm hungover and need my energy to party tonight too.

How's that pretend job of yours Super Genius Finawin?

Are you working for the CIA now????/

[Snero]

also, if you're looking at making generalisations, 1 example does not make a trend.

[Lyion]

The problem with this is that you're assuming a test isn't culturally biased. The concept of a 'racial bias' is fairly ridiculous on a test for the reasons I mentioned earlier, but cultural biases do exist, and are notoriously difficult to either prove or disprove.

Culural Bias is EASY to see and prove. Just look at any Academic Test scores from any urban area with a large concentration of blacks.

Cultural Bias is simply a matter of applied behavior within an environment for a group. Thus, blacks in the inner city taking tests are more likely to fail due to the environment they are raised in.

FOB Asians excel at the same tests. Why? Because of their culture. It has little to do with their 'race', and moreso to do with their communities desire for success.

The blacks are not failing because they are black. They are failing because they are American Inner City Blacks who are raised in a way to make it more difficult for them to succeed academically, and in an environment that is not conducive to learning.

Instead of blaming the tests, or saying things are biased, perhaps we should blame the culture that fosters this? This culture is accepted and promoted in politically correct enabling ways that perpetuates this continuing cultural bias of losing.

[Lueyen]

Why, I can’t answer, nor do I know why they can’t seem to get out of the vicious circle of poverty, but I would wager it has mostly to do with the environment you are brought up in.

I think your pretty close to the answer here Zan, although I may have a different perception then you do as to what aspects of that environment are the contributing factors. I believe it is more a problem of mindset and culture then it is with economic factors. If from the day you are born everything you learn is that you are a victim, you have no chance to rise above your "lot in life", and everything around you confirms that why even try? I do think a lot of blacks fall into this mindset of hopelessness, see no way out, and conform to what is expected, both by their own culture to an extent and to society in general.

I think this explains a lot how you can have other minority groups that in general start out at the bottom rungs and climb their way up (usually historically immigrants). In the US we are now seeing a surge in Hispanic immigration. Most coming to this country were poor, yet we are starting to see a shift in general where many Hispanics are rising above those bottom rungs economically. There is also another factor here... but that’s probably best for another discussion. If you look at history nearly every surge of immigration of different racial backgrounds has started out with the immigrants being poor and pulling themselves up by their bootstraps... it's an American dream if you will, and many cultures have succeeded.

One could point out that while other immigrants were given the freedom to pursue success and happiness once they were here, because of slavery blacks were not. This did indeed initially put a blockade up on the ability of the race as a whole to better themselves. To completely and blindly contribute the modern day situation to this I think is hitting near the mark but still missing. With the end of slavery, the end of segregation, the playing field should be level. Slavery and segregation should have delayed the rise of stature, but not completely prevented it.

I can not tell you how many times I've seen situations where things were not going well for a black person and they have "pulled out the race card". Mind you these are not hearsay, they are not situations that I have little details on, they are situations where I have been very close and have intimate knowledge of the details, and are situations where I can say with almost absolute certainty that race was not a factor. The thing is, I don't think they were actually trying to "pull out the race card" in most cases, I think they actually believed it. It is human nature that we have trouble admitting to ourselves our own faults and mistakes, and so the tendency becomes to blame someone or something else, and in nearly all the cases I'm thinking of, I think this tendency manifested itself in the idea that racism was the cause of the problem, not the individuals actions or lack there of.

Unfortunately if people are unable to take personal responsibility for their part in a problem, and blame it away on something else, they will never make an attempt to correct the actual problem. In this way it does become a constant circle with no end. For these people the problem they blame things on will always be there. This actually transcends beyond the race issue to many people who experience reoccurring problems in their lives.

[Langston]

How does living in the inner city prevent you from being able to remember a string of 7 numbers or rotate an object in your mind?

You guys are STILL making excuses.

I'm beginning to think that most of you have never even taken an IQ test. There's a very strict regimen followed to prevent "cultural" bias... and the questions themselves are not conducive to interpretation of that type.

I'm done with this conversation. This is like arguing about the temperature of the swimming pool with someone who does nothing but scream, "I LIKE CLOWNS!"

[Ouchyfish]

I'm done with this conversation. This is like arguing about the temperature of the swimming pool with someone who does nothing but scream, "I LIKE CLOWNS!"

You've been around this board for years and this is just now beginning to bother you?

[Langston]

No - it bothered me long before. I left for a few months to take a break from it... hoping that things would be different when I came back.

[Adivina]

I was wrong obviously.

Learn from the signature

[Haylo]

I would be interested to see what would happen if you took a group of people of all colors and tested them in brackets broken up by income level, i.e. what type of schools they had access to. So take 100 of each race from say 100k+ families, repeat this for each income range. I bet that the differences between these test scores would be very small. I'm not saying that it would change and that black people would be at a higher level, i'm just saying that it would be interesting to see.

Regardless of what people think, income level plays a huge part in how you can score on these tests. For instance, on my SATs I scored a 1560, none of my cousins on one side of my family broke a 800 or so. We are all black, so why the difference in scores. It's because they all went to inner city schools and many of the things on these tests are outside of their knowledge/experience. In their schools they were not taught things that appeared on these tests. Think about it like this, what if you went to say Timbuktu, you took a series of tests all based on things that deal with life and culture in Timbuktu, how well would you do? That's what people testing from a low income background are dealing with when they take some of these tests. They have never been exposed to some of this stuff until they see it on a test. Of course they will do bad.

For those that don't think day to day teaching material can vary so much based on where the school is, I swear you would not believe it. I work at a school which caters to mostly inner city kids, I have in the past worked at a private school in a very rich area. Basic teaching is vastly different, basic skills that you would expect all students to have by a certain age are just being taught years later than they should be. It all begins at a grade school level.

[Ouchyfish]

Who cares? The bulk of the African American culture is quite content to be a lawless thorn in the side of civilization. Like someone else said on this board, look at Africa and the majority of places they set up shop. Always the same end result.

[Zanchief]

How does living in the inner city prevent you from being able to remember a string of 7 numbers or rotate an object in your mind?

You guys are STILL making excuses.

I'm beginning to think that most of you have never even taken an IQ test. There's a very strict regimen followed to prevent "cultural" bias... and the questions themselves are not conducive to interpretation of that type.

I'm done with this conversation. This is like arguing about the temperature of the swimming pool with someone who does nothing but scream, "I LIKE CLOWNS!"

Some would take this opportunity to bow out with dignity.

[Lueyen]

Who cares? The bulk of the African American culture is quite content to be a lawless thorn in the side of civilization. Like someone else said on this board, look at Africa and the majority of places they set up shop. Always the same end result.

I truely hope this was not a response to what Haylo had to say.

[Tossica]

I grew up dirt poor and I'm a fuckin' genius.

[kaharthemad]

I dont think it was the 'inner' city that had anything to do with it. Hell alot of us grew up inner city, I was, Millwaukee, Kansas City, Gary. The difference as to why I scored better on my ACT SAT and ASVAB scores is because when I brought home a bad grade my mother would beat the t total shit out of me. Pain is a good motivator.

Toss has made a point unfortunatly for the side of genetics. If Tos, was a dirt poor inner city boy by Zan's assumption he would be a total moron. However, even though his ability to use the word 'fuck' alot aside Tos is fairly intellectual. So the whole 'they be poor and stupid cause the 'man' keeps him poor' is stupid.

One needs to be responsible for their own abilities and there own situation. Noone is to blame for the problems you have but yourself. Should the Government step in and help? I concede that a little help can be fine, but when you add too much help people start using it much the same way tiny tim used his crutch...to bear all his weight. After awhile those people start to become soft in the thinking centers. Much like nerds become flabby in the mid section from not excising.

Perhaps what we are looking at is a higher problem with certain ethinic backgrounds. All pertaining to the crutch we as society has given them. The main problem is the social structures of the parent or their refusal to learn is seeping into the younger generation, causing the IQ tests to show a decline in that ethnic area.

[Harrison]

How in the flying monkey fuck, do you guys even argue against statistics.

PURE FUCKING NUMBERS

"day wer in city, that why"

Fucking retards, I swear you people live in bubbles.

Edit: Typo

[Zanchief]

How in the flying monkey fuck, do you guys even argue against statistics.

PURE FUCKING NUMBERS

"day wer in city, that why"

Fucking retards, I swear you people live in bubbles.

Edit: Typo

We aren't arguing against statistics. You clearly don't understand what we're saying. I'm sorry you don't understand science.

Kahar, you don't understand what I'm saying either.

It is a statistical FACT that people growing up in impoverished neighborhoods don't test as well on IQ tests and people growing up in rich neighborhoods. Combine that with the vast number of black people living below the poverty line, that explains the statistical disparity between white and black peoples tested IQ. This isn't an excuse. This is simple statistics.

Yes Toss was poor and managed to do well for himself, just like thousands of black people do every year. You act like there have never been any intellectual black people EVER. That's a moronic assertion.

[Ouchyfish]

Believe it or not there are Chinese folks that are not good at math.

[kaharthemad]

I never said that did I? What you are saying in your last sentence is a false statement. I never said that. I said that the crutch mentality that we have placed in some of the inner cities could be causing this problem. If a person lives with the notion that every meal is free(welfare) and that he does not have to work to obtain anything in his life, his inteligence drops due to lack of use, or lack of caring to use. Im not talking about Blacks now. I am playing off of Lyion's statement about inner city kids. If a person is pushed to excell he excells, plain and simple. If more ethnic cultures pushed their children to excell you would see a trend in that ethnic area starting to nudge ahead. the problem is that people refuse to do this. Do I belive there is a laziness gene? I dont know. Do I belive there is a chemical change in someones thinking the makes one person want to succed and excell over another, yes I do.

Looking at alot of different areas, we could debate all day wether black kids test worse than whites, stats say Whites score higher. Perhaps it is because more parents push their children ahead and teach them there is no free ride in life and that you have to really work to succeed. I am sure Tossica's Mother/Father/Parental Guardian told him this or pushed him in school. I know my mother did.

[Langston]

How in the flying monkey fuck, do you guys even argue against statistics.

PURE FUCKING NUMBERS

"day wer in city, that why"

Fucking retards, I swear you people live in bubbles.

Edit: Typo

We aren't arguing against statistics. You clearly don't understand what we're saying. I'm sorry you don't understand science.

Kahar, you don't understand what I'm saying either.

It is a statistical FACT that people growing up in impoverished neighborhoods don't test as well on IQ tests and people growing up in rich neighborhoods. Combine that with the vast number of black people living below the poverty line, that explains the statistical disparity between white and black peoples tested IQ. This isn't an excuse. This is simple statistics.

Yes Toss was poor and managed to do well for himself, just like thousands of black people do every year. You act like there have never been any intellectual black people EVER. That's a moronic assertion.

Maybe this is due to the inter-breeding of stupid people in the ghetto... where they live because they're stupid to begin with.

Sorry to say, but two stupid people normally don't produce a genius child. So the inter-breeding of these genetically inferior folks isn't likely to spontaneously produce the next Albert Einstein.

[Gargamellow]

That is garbage. You can go to the bottom of the ocean and test ten sea turtles for intelligence and then test ten ducks from CHicago for intelligence then claim that 100% of the testees from Chitown are considerably more ignorant than the ones from the bottom of the ocean.

My point is, statistics are crap..so is this article.

[Langston]

That is garbage. You can go to the bottom of the ocean and test ten sea turtles for intelligence and then test ten ducks from CHicago for intelligence then claim that 100% of the testees from Chitown are considerably more ignorant than the ones from the bottom of the ocean.

My point is, statistics are crap..so is this article.

RoFL!

Leave it to Gargamellow to dumb down even THIS thread.

Too bad you're not black, Garg - you're pulling down our white people IQ average.