States dealing with abortion

Spazz · Post by **Spazz** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:55 pm

Do you celebrate your birthday the day you think your parents fucker or the day you were born. partial birth is wrong but up to a certain point I dont beleive its murder. I think giving a fetus the same rights as a living breathing baby is insanity.

Jay · Post by **Jay** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:34 pm

Harrison wrote:
Tuggan wrote:eh, to me a fetus is nothing but a parasite til it's out of the womb and being annoying to everyone else present and not just the host it was infecting. i don't give a fuck if they allow abortions right up until that magical moment where she shits it out.

it's none of my business, it's none of your business. it's not the governments business. it's the woman and man directly involved and that's fuckin it. really not that complicated if you just mind you and your own.

Your stupidity surpasses what I thought to be its end. Grow up...

It's a living creature with emotions, a heartbeat, dreams, CONSCIOUS THOUGHT at some point during the pregnancy. To kill a defenseless baby is murder.

Murder is illegal, and so should abortion past a certain point. We don't allow murder of people who CAN defend themselves, we sure as fuck don't allow murder of the defenseless.

The other stuff is arguable but emotions and dreams are a bit of a stretch.

Harrison · Post by **Harrison** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:39 pm

No, it's not. At some point in the pregnancy they are all documented to begin occurring.

Aborting them at this point, which does happen, is the murder of a child.

Post by **Lyion** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:52 pm

At 20 weeks, an unborn babys brain has the full complement of cells and registers on an EEG. It feels pain, thinks, and does in fact dream.

A dreadfully painful surgical death is brought upon these thinking feeling little people that is a thousand times more gruesome than the worst horror film, at a time when they are the most receptive.

Post by **Arlos** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:18 am

Leaving aside questions of 20+ weeks, in which I know we're not going to agree, what's your opinion on FIRST trimester abortions, Lyion? None of the arguments you have as yet used applies to a fetus that is, say, only 10 weeks old.

I am obviously in the pro-abortion camp, though I do agree that it should NOT be used as a substitute for birth control. Personally, I feel they become a "person" at the point at which they are capable of independant life. Where that point is is rather nebulous, I concede. All that said, I think whether to abort or not is one of the toughest decisions someone can ever make, that they deserve the respect to make that decision in peace, and not be a tug of war between competing ideologies.

-Arlos

Markarado · Post by **Markarado** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:18 am

So you believe that we should respect their 'right' to make a decision in peace to murder a child. That's wonderful, Arlos.

Post by **Arlos** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:58 am

Yes, because unless YOU are the father, you have no right to interfere in someone else's personal life.

-Arlos

Harrison · Post by **Harrison** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:42 am

The worst part for me, is I am on "the fence".

I know the difference between cells and life. :dunno:

Post by **Lyion** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:05 am

arlos wrote:Leaving aside questions of 20+ weeks, in which I know we're not going to agree, what's your opinion on FIRST trimester abortions, Lyion? None of the arguments you have as yet used applies to a fetus that is, say, only 10 weeks old.

I'm personally opposed to all abortions, however legally and scientifically I believe the option for early first trimester abortions needs to remain open and available, for now.

I've quoted I believe the morning after pill and other remedies should remain available and legal, and if having a baby is that much of an issue it should be taken care of early first trimester. I oppose those personally, but again thats simply my viewpoint and belief that life begins at conception.

Most of Europe disallows abortion after 12 weeks. I wish we'd follow suit, and while I'd still find it morally bad, I think it's a fair balance to start with.

The Kizzy · Post by **The Kizzy** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:42 am

Arlos, I like you.

Evermore · Post by **Evermore** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 6:00 am

I agree with arlos. imo this shouldnt even BE an issue. yes abortion proceedures should be available. Otherwise frightened kids will go underground to get them and that can be just as big as a disaster. This issue is one of responsibility. Parents need to actually parent. Children need to be taught there are consequenses for their actions and to take the responsibility that goes along with them.

Snero · Post by **Snero** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 6:13 am

Harrison wrote:Murder is illegal, and so should abortion past a certain point. We don't allow murder of people who CAN defend themselves, we sure as fuck don't allow murder of the defenseless.

so you're ok with abortion if it's done early. To anybody ranting against abortion, if you actually asked people who are pro choice, I would think a vast majority of people are very much against any late term abortions. Nobody wants to see a baby that in theory could live outside of the womb be killed because the mother took her sweet time in deciding whether she wanted to have the kid or not.

The only reason some organizations are steadfast against the blocking of these procedures is the perceived slippery slope. If they allow any kind of limitation, in time the push will be to limit it more until the whole thing is illegal.

kinghooter00 · Post by **kinghooter00** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 6:55 am

Man, i thought my wife was pregnant alittle bit ago, and i was scared... But she made it perfectly clear to me that she would never get an abortion even though she knew it would be a bad situation. I like that. Take responsibility. Don't just toss a kid away because you're not ready... She wasn't but she has done a good job.

Post by **Lyion** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:07 am

Snero wrote:so you're ok with abortion if it's done early. To anybody ranting against abortion, if you actually asked people who are pro choice, I would think a vast majority of people are very much against any late term abortions. Nobody wants to see a baby that in theory could live outside of the womb be killed because the mother took her sweet time in deciding whether she wanted to have the kid or not.

The only reason some organizations are steadfast against the blocking of these procedures is the perceived slippery slope. If they allow any kind of limitation, in time the push will be to limit it more until the whole thing is illegal.

However, these justification just makes it seem like the pro abortion lobby are more in line with Tuggans view and thoughts, and divide things even further down battle lines.

Tuggan · Post by **Tuggan** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:11 am

Hey, i'm pro-life. :nuts:

Snero · Post by **Snero** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:14 am

lyion wrote:I'm personally opposed to all abortions, however legally and scientifically I believe the option for early first trimester abortions needs to remain open and available, for now.

this is the reason for it though, I'm not saying I agree with it, but I can see why they would take that position

Maeya · Post by **Maeya** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:15 am

lyion wrote:At 20 weeks, an unborn babys brain has the full complement of cells and registers on an EEG. It feels pain, thinks, and does in fact dream.

A dreadfully painful surgical death is brought upon these thinking feeling little people that is a thousand times more gruesome than the worst horror film, at a time when they are the most receptive.

What? How can a 20-week old fetus dream? How can it be proven that it has dreams? It has had no experiences, it has seen nothing, it has never smelled anything, it comprehends nothing. I know that the fetus can hear, though I'm not sure what stage it develops that ability, but even if you read it a story it's not like it can have dreams about the story as it doesn't understand a damn word you're saying. I just don't understand how it's possible for an object that has never had any experiences or any real sensations to dream. That's mind-blowing.

Markarado · Post by **Markarado** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:15 am

Interesting turn of events it is ><

Tuggan · Post by **Tuggan** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:23 am

haha, I hope you're not expecting much of answer Maeya.

Post by **Lyion** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:31 am

Maeya wrote:What? How can a 20-week old fetus dream?

Do you know at 20 weeks a baby can easily recognize it's mothers voice, and before that will react to music and it's environment.

It is a fact at 17 weeks, a baby can start having REM sleep, and dreams.

We can monitor babies now in extraordinary ways.

Snero · Post by **Snero** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:34 am

dreaming has a specific brain wave pattern and we can detect a baby's brain waves as early as 6 weeks, so I would assume this is how we know baby's can and do dream. As far as what they dream, who knows, they do experience things though it's just extremely limited

Maeya · Post by **Maeya** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:37 am

I find that hard to believe, how they can measure that. I've seen babies after they were born, and even several weeks after they were born and they don't respond any more to their mother's voice than they do to any other non-scary noise. They are like semi-responsive lumps. I don't understand how they can be more responsive in the womb and suddenly lose all of that upon birth. Unless it's something stupid like measuring brain wave patterns when the mother speaks vs. anything else.

If you have an article on all this, I'd be curious to read it.

Snero · Post by **Snero** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:48 am

hmm ok i found some info

different brain wave patterns http://peyote.com/jonstef/brain.htm
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Human Development Chart

Used with permission from HUMAN LIFE of Washington
Stage

Status of Development
Conception Sex, intelligence, eye color, shoe size, etc. are already determined by the 46 human chromosomes present. Within 1 week Implantation occurs.

Day 22 Heart begins to beat with blood often of a different type than the mother’s blood type. His heart, brain, spinal column, and nervous system are almost complete. Eyes begin to form.

Week 6 Brain waves can be detected. Mouth and lips are present. Central nervous system begins to control muscle movement.

Week 7 Eyelids and toes form. Baby kicks, although the mother cannot feel it yet.

Week 8 Moves away from painful stimuli. Fingerprints are formed. Everything is present that is in a full term baby.

Weeks 9 and 10 Will curve fingers around an object placed in his or her hand. Squints, swallows, hiccups, sucks his or her thumb. Increase in nerve-muscle connection.

Weeks 11 and 12 Baby can smile. All organs are functioning.

Week 13 Sex is now identifiable.

Weeks 16-20 Baby hears external voices. Sleeps and dreams.

Week 21 to birth (see photos below) Child can survive birth (Sometimes as early as 19 weeks after conception).

http://www.studentsforlife.org/wp/education/fetal-development/

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here is another website i found
Science has discovered that mammals and birds have REM (Rapid Eye Movement that occurs when we dream) sleep. While the eyes move vigorously (the movement can easily be seen through the closed eye lids), the rest of the body is usually quiet. Even a 6-month-old foetus has REM sleep. But for the first ten years of life, children's dreams (as distinguished from nightmares) are different from adults' dreams; their dreams are simple, usually unemotional, and children do not usually put themselves into their dreams (Begley, 1989).
http://www.xs4all.nl/~cuckoo/TDE/drhistory.html

____________________________________________________________
another
However, it may be very important to the developing foetus. This is conjectured from the fact that sleep of a new born baby is about 50% REM. That type of sleep, then, may be significant in programming or even providing some kind of genetically coded imagery to the foetus. Not many psychologists believe now that the mind of a new born baby is a complete tabular rasa or blank state.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dreamthemes/page25.html

Maeya · Post by **Maeya** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:31 am

That's nuts. I've always thought it really intriguing that dogs can dream, which would imply that they can imagine, but I would have never imagined that a fetus could.

Evermore · Post by **Evermore** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:34 am

Maeya wrote: How can a 20-week old fetus dream? How can it be proven that it has dreams? It has had no experiences, it has seen nothing, it has never smelled anything, it comprehends nothing. I know that the fetus can hear, though I'm not sure what stage it develops that ability, but even if you read it a story it's not like it can have dreams about the story as it doesn't understand a damn word you're saying. I just don't understand how it's possible for an object that has never had any experiences or any real sensations to dream. That's mind-blowing.

can you really say it has no expericences or any real sensations? a fetus can respond to stimuli, there by proviing sensations, does it understand them? does it actually need to, who knows.

abortion is wrong. Just as wrong as denying someone the choise.