namelesstavern.net

So you are saying that there is no way a law could be made that abortion is murder and it NOT be based on religion?

P.S. Yes, obviously that reference is regarding Jeremiah, but if God knew one person before conception, isn't it conceivable he knows everyone? Well, obviously not to you, being an atheist and all but from the standpoint of someone who believes in an all-knowing God, then it would be conceivable for true.

Women who use birth control are sluts, lets get back tot he topic at hand please.

Men who use their dicks are sluts.

And the percentage of anti-abortionists who are athiests compared to the percentage that are Christians is what, exactly? 10,000 to one, being insanely generous? (probably more like 100,000 to one or worse) And in truth, if ANYONE can produce good moral/ethical/scientific arguments that are in NO way whatsoever based on any religious tenets, then they deserve to be heard, yes. However, that isn't the reality. 99.99% of the diatribes against abortion are faith-based.

-Arlos

Preach. (That was to Kizzy =P)

Donnel: Who said I'm an athiest? Where have I ever once said I'm an athiest? In all honesty, I'm pagan, and I went through a number of years (and even confirmation) as a Catholic, before I got old enough to decide for myself what I wanted.

As for the Jeremiah bit, certainly it's conceivable that god could know people other than Jeremiah, but that's purely conjecture, yes? What was asked for was biblical proof. What you provided just proves that if Jeremiah had been aborted, that would've been thwarting god's will; it doesn't by any means extend to the rest of humanity as canonical biblical proof.

-Arlos

My mistake Arlos, I must have been confusing you with someone else.

It is my belief that God chose his people before the foundation of the world was ever formed.

I get that from: Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

If God chose his people to be holy and blameless before the foundation of the world, I think that would predate conception pretty well.

look, two people having a rational, civil discussion about religious belief!

on NT!

If god has a plan for us all doesn't that mean that he invented abortion and he wants us to abort babies? Or is it like Back to the future when Marty McFly goes back in time and starts messing with the time stream. Are we all doomed cause someone fucked with gods fateful plan?

I didn't factor in religion at all when I was reading about brain activity of a child at different periods of development in the womb, emotions, etc.

There is a grey area for sure here when a fetus becomes a human being, but it's too bogged down in bullshit to be properly researched and discussed.

It needs to be looked at and there needs to be something done soon. Making some fucking ridiculous law about it not being a person until the time in which it leaves the woman's body is RIDICULOUS. (might be our communist pigs up north who have this and not us, I'm fuzzy right now)

So if she's soon to be in labor and decides, fuck this, kill the fucker...that's ok since it hasn't been birthed? I'm seeing something wrong with this...

Would make Ceasarean birth's invalid right?

A fertilized egg has all the DNA of a Human adult. At which point does the "human" get injected into it?

P.S. Zanchief, I'm not ignoring your question, it's just a complicated one that is debated hotly even among Christians.

Zanchief wrote:If god has a plan for us all doesn't that mean that he invented abortion and he wants us to abort babies? Or is it like Back to the future when Marty McFly goes back in time and starts messing with the time stream. Are we all doomed cause someone fucked with gods fateful plan?

You think time is out of "God's" scope? If he created "existence" as creationists would put it...I highly doubt time is out of his control. Therefor making time travel part of his plans.

Zanchief, as God in Time Bandits said, I think it has something to do with free will.

Donnel wrote:Would make Ceasarean birth's invalid right?

A fertilized egg has all the DNA of a Human adult. At which point does the "human" get injected into it?

While I personally believe this is ridiculous to even argue about at all. Abortion is a horrid thing. I have MUCH LESS animosity towards someone who had an abortion BEFORE the second trimester. After that they make me sick. If there are no health problems, I am sickened to the core that a mother would kill their child to make life easier for themselves.

I'm not entirely sure how much is known about the very specifics of child development in the womb pre-birth.

What I do know is that they do dream, experience pain, emotions, etc. at a certain point. We as a whole need to NOT allow abortions if this is clearly taking place. That in my opinion is murder. That is based on pure common sense. Thinking, dreaming, experiencing emotions, feeling pain etc...and ending that life is somehow justified because some dolt said it's not a person at that point?

Something doesn't add up in there from a common sense standpoint all emotions aside...

Why'd you quote me Fin? I wasn't disagreeing with you.

because that is his way of validating his not-own opinion

Was explaining about when a fetus becomes a "human" by "definition" in my own opinion.

Wasn't disagreeing with you either...

Kizzy wrote:because that is his way of validating his not-own opinion

Why do you even bother moving your fingers on the keys?

You make no sense woman

why do you bother responding to my threads? You love me. You want me. I'm irresistable.

In all fairness though Kizzy, does anyone really have an opinion that is truly their own?

"Well I researched it for myself and this is what I believe"

Followed by links or cut and paste articles of someone else's words detailing why I believe what I believe.

Harassing him for having "not-own opinions" isn't really a sound debate tactic.

Harrison wrote:Yeah

ccc

Sex is one of the most raw and natural actions of the human creature. Wanting sex does not a slut make.

I never used pills, but I have used condoms. I would never have an abortion.

Gargamellow wrote:Sex is one of the most raw and natural actions of the human creature. Wanting sex does not a slut make.

I never used pills, but I have used condoms. I would never have an abortion.

[post here about yoda reference]

My personal belief and opinion (Yes, gasp, someone admitting something is just an opinion, and on NT. Someone alert Ripley) is that it achieves "human-ness" at the point at which it is capable of being an independent entity. I realize that is an extremely nebulous point, which is why there's so much debate on the issue. Also, I do not personally feel that abortion should be treated as just another form of birth control, in general. It's a huge decision, and should be much more of a last resort than anything else. HOWEVER, it should be entirely up to the woman involved to decide; it is her body, no one else's. If you don't own your own body, what DO you own?

If you truly want to reduce the number of abortions happening, put in some serious education on birth control, and at a young age. No, it's not promoting sex, it's being realistic, assuming the message is something like, "In an ideal world, you shouldn't have sex until you are an adult, and only then after careful consideration, etc. However, since we know the real world doesn't work that way, IF you choose to have sex, here is some stuff you absolutely need to know." Make condoms, the "Pill", etc. freely and readily available. Also, make sure that the Morning After Pill is readily available as well. For those who don't know, the MAP basically (if I am rememebring right) prevents the fertilized egg, should there be one, from binding on to the uterine wall, meaning it will be flushed out before it has a chance to start growing. No fetus ever develops. The egg has barely become a xygote, and hasn't even started dividing yet.

As per statistics I got from a Princeton website, the best of the MAPs causes an 89% reduction in pregnancy rate. The way this is figured is the following: If 100 women had unprotected intercourse once during the second or third week of their cycle, about 8 would become pregnant; following treatment with the MAP, only 1 would become pregnant: a 89% reduction. Obviously, if these people took the MAP, they didn't want a kid. That's 7 pregnancies and potential abortions stopped before they ever happen. How is that not a win-win?

-Arlos

Actually, I have researched it myself, and formed my own opinion. I wrote an article for the school paper in high school about a student who had an abortion after being advised by the school counselor to do so, and the lawsuit that followed.

/wink Fin../chuckle