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Tacks wrote:And like I said, you have no clue how pvp in WoW works anymore. Even on the pvp servers there is next to no "world pvp". The discussion here was PVP in WoW. Not pvp in MMO's.

Sure if you wanted to play free for all quake style deathmatch then it's a different story. The discussion was pvp in WoW. There's a lot more strategy involved besides take 5 of the highest dps guys and go kill object A.

ok... Way to ignore my simple points and get defensive and angry. I'll try again and simplify.

My point had nothing to do with World PVP, but about the BETTER guilds and groups being on PVP servers, with people who work better as a team.

WOW strategy is a lot simpler than most other MMOs, and the PVP is a bit less restrictive but the same tenets apply.

The Paladin in WOW, as I said last time, is IDENTICAL in design, to the Paladin in DAOC so the groups with experience as a team know how to combat them.

Again, have you played as high level alliance? It'd give you a different perspective.

Lyion wrote:Most of my PVPing is done on a PVP server, and there burst DPS is king, although the encounters are much different. I have a 60 Paladin, so I'd say I know the class better than the horde types here who have never PVPed with one.

Good groups do more efficient and better DPS and win. Period. DPS is king in PVP. It isn't the ONLY thing, of course, but massive firepower wins over defense in PVP in WOW every time, sans when you fight inept people of which WOW has more than their fair share of.

-edit

WOW is less team focused than my experiences in Lineage 2 or DAOC PVP server, but much better than say UOs old PVP.

Sorry Lyion, but burst DPS is only part of the story in WoW PvP. It's good for ganking, but not for any kind of real PvP, be it objective oriented, or simply groups going at it.

You have a preconceived notion about how I post...I was not in anyway angry to defensive. I was simply telling you why I had posted what I posted. I won't even bother if you're going to do your usual 'oh it's just taxx being an asshat' responses.

xaoshaen wrote:

Donnel wrote:So you are saying that druid has no controllable dps?

No more than a Paladin does.

Moonfire? Wrath? A whole slew of cat and bear abilities that don't rely on "autoattack and pray"?

edit:

Saying that even Cat form by itself has no controlled dps is the same as saying rogues don't have controlled dps.

Maybe the question is the definition?

Me push button, it hurt other, me happy. <-- That's controlled dps and the pally, like I said, has no pvp controlled dps that doesn't cost talent points to get.

but about the BETTER guilds and groups being on PVP servers, with people who work better as a team.

This statement is just wrong. It's all situational, sometimes there will be guilds on pvp servers who do better than guilds on pve servers in a pve environment and vice-versa. It's kind of stupid to assume just because you're on a pvp server that you're automatically better in pvp. There's a group of PVPers on alliance on our server that would prove otherwise.

Donnel wrote:

xaoshaen wrote:

Donnel wrote:So you are saying that druid has no controllable dps?

No more than a Paladin does.

Moonfire? Wrath? A whole slew of cat and bear abilities that don't rely on "autoattack and pray"?

edit:

Saying that even Cat form by itself has no controlled dps is the same as saying rogues don't have controlled dps.

Maybe the question is the definition?

Me push button, it hurt other, me happy. <-- That's controlled dps and the pally, like I said, has no pvp controlled dps that doesn't cost talent points to get.

Heh, have you ever seen what happens if a druid attacks someone in cat form? Cat form is in no way comparable to a rogue.

Moonfire spam is a good way to ensure that you lose the battle as a druid. Wrath is useless without talent points.

Druids have no more controlled DPS in PvP then do Paladins. Druid melee DPS + moonfire is roughly equivalent to Paladin melee DPS.

Tacks wrote:You have a preconceived notion about how I post...I was not in anyway angry to defensive. I was simply telling you why I had posted what I posted. I won't even bother if you're going to do your usual 'oh it's just taxx being an asshat' responses.

Taxx wrote:you have no clue how pvp in WoW works anymore

My bad, but that comes across as attacking versus discussing. I've done quite a bit of PVP fighting in WOW. Not nearly as much as I did on DAOC Mordred or Shadowbane, but a lot of group versus group.

Xaoshaen wrote:Sorry Lyion, but burst DPS is only part of the story in WoW PvP. It's good for ganking, but not for any kind of real PvP, be it objective oriented, or simply groups going at it.

Hmm, I need to get some statistics in my group versus group fights, or find a good site with reference to class breakdown in groups on some of the bigger servers with a lot of good teams fighting.

This is not about zerg fights, as I don't consider that PVP anymore than I did in DAOC, Xao. I never said the game was about pure burst damage. I'm not talking about a group of mages running around, but a team that knows how to inflict heavy damage fast with streamlined support is optimal based on my personal experiences.

I think you are missing the point. The QUALITY of the dps is irrelavent. It's the fact that they have the option to push a button and do damage at the completion of the action.

Options are what it's all about.

Tacks wrote:This statement is just wrong. It's all situational, sometimes there will be guilds on pvp servers who do better than guilds on pve servers in a pve environment and vice-versa. It's kind of stupid to assume just because you're on a pvp server that you're automatically better in pvp. There's a group of PVPers on alliance on our server that would prove otherwise.

Yeah, that would be a valid statement in EQ, but not in WoW where one of the focuses of the endgame is PvP. Having moved over to a PvP server myself after having extensive PvP experience on multiple PvE servers, there's no real difference in the skill sets you're likely to encounter between servers. The class-distribution tends to be skewed, but not the actual abilities of the players.

Donnel wrote:I think you are missing the point. The QUALITY of the dps is irrelavent. It's the fact that they have the option to push a button and do damage at the completion of the action.

Options are what it's all about.

You have the same option a druid does: turn on auto attack. Sure a druid can do something else, but not if they actually want DPS. If you'd simply said you wanted more options in PvP, that would be fine, but by including the term "DPS", you've negated all of the druid's extraneous abilities for the aforementioned reasons. Wrath, Cat Form, Moonfire spam: not DPS options.

xaoshaen wrote:Sorry Lyion, but burst DPS is only part of the story in WoW PvP. It's good for ganking, but not for any kind of real PvP, be it objective oriented, or simply groups going at it.

yeah

as the premier hunter/member of the best WSG/AB group on my (pvp... woah) server i can say with an extreme confidence (and humongous penis/balls, on the internet, and perhaps RL) that burst DPS doesn't win shit except when you get groups of newbies flailing around at each other

your support is what makes instances of people getting high strings of burst DPS against your members a non-factor

Lyion wrote:Hmm, I need to get some statistics in my group versus group fights, or find a good site with reference to class breakdown in groups on some of the bigger servers with a lot of good teams fighting.

This is not about zerg fights, as I don't consider that PVP anymore than I did in DAOC, Xao. I never said the game was about pure burst damage. I'm not talking about a group of mages running around, but a team that knows how to inflict heavy damage fast with streamlined support is optimal based on my personal experiences.

Then you're still talking about absolutely essential support, which is where the Paladin truely shines. Much like a druid, both are healers with high survivability which are invaluable to a good group. Both are often better support for a PvP group than a Priest, particularly on the Alliance side, where they'll be facing shaman, a class apparently designed to explode priests.

You've moved away from the 'Burst DPS is king' stance to a much more accurate 'DPS, properly supported and protected is king' position. Relying on unsupported DPS is a great way to visit a Spirit Healer.

paladins when played right are amazing btw

fortunately there's only a handful that actually know how to play on my server

D. Duck wrote:paladins when played right are amazing btw

fortunately there's only a handful that actually know how to play on my server

truth

D. Duck wrote:paladins when played right are amazing btw

fortunately there's only a handful that actually know how to play on my server

On my shaman, I used to offer a prayer of thanks for that every time I saw a Pally on the other team. Sooner or later they'll figure out that having shiny plate and pointy bits doesn't make them a DPS class. Of course, right around the same time, hopefully some shaman will realize that they should be playing a mixed support/offense role instead of spamming shocks, so it may balance out.

xaoshaen wrote:

Donnel wrote:I think you are missing the point. The QUALITY of the dps is irrelavent. It's the fact that they have the option to push a button and do damage at the completion of the action.

Options are what it's all about.

You have the same option a druid does: turn on auto attack. Sure a druid can do something else, but not if they actually want DPS. If you'd simply said you wanted more options in PvP, that would be fine, but by including the term "DPS", you've negated all of the druid's extraneous abilities for the aforementioned reasons. Wrath, Cat Form, Moonfire spam: not DPS options.

Remove me from your discussion from Lyion.

Properly supported, Druids are so much more then just autoattack.

Even if it's just autoattack and moonfire, that's more controllable (meaning they decide when it happens) dps options.

But properly supported, a druid could use any of the tools at their disposal whenever they wanted to, and you are seriously blind if you think that the paladin has anywhere near that amount of damage dealing versatility (versatility, not power).

Donnel wrote:Remove me from your discussion from Lyion.

The two conversations have been entirely separate from the get go.

Properly supported, Druids are so much more then just autoattack.

Not on offense, no. Druids, played well, are doing the supporting.

Even if it's just autoattack and moonfire, that's more controllable (meaning they decide when it happens) dps options.

No, it's not. Druids have precisely one option for controllable DPS: click Moonfire and turn on auto-attack. Neither part of this is negotiable.

But properly supported, a druid could use any of the tools at their disposal whenever they wanted to, and you are seriously blind if you think that the paladin has anywhere near that amount of damage dealing versatility (versatility, not power).

No, no they can't. There's no reason for a druid to use cat form for DPS. There's no reason for them to spam wrath (without talent points, as that's the situation you described). You're suffering from the proverbial ocular beam if you honestly think that druids have any option but Moonfire and auto-attack. Feel free to line out a situation where the druid should do something else...

Okay, I will go along with your pegging of druids to one role.

Druids can use 2H maces. So can pally's so theoretically they could use the "same" weapons.

So at the base level, they are identical in the damage category with just auto attack.

Druid presses moonfire button, then autoattack. Presses moonfire again when it wears off.

Paladin presses Seal of Command button, and then autoattack, hoping for a proc.

Which of these two can control their bursts?

nERRRRDDSS!!!!1112

xaoshaen wrote:You've moved away from the 'Burst DPS is king' stance to a much more accurate 'DPS, properly supported and protected is king' position. Relying on unsupported DPS is a great way to visit a Spirit Healer.

I guess I should simplify and say in MY experiences with alliance groups, our heavy DPS group with minimal support roll. Although a big reason we roll is due to people knowing their roles. Our more defensive groups are nowhere near as effective in group versus group.

The game is about groups. My point was DPS is king, and based on my PVP experiences, it still is. The better groups are getting concentrated burst DPS and winning.

Of course YMMV.

Donnel wrote:Okay, I will go along with your pegging of druids to one role.

Druids can use 2H maces. So can pally's so theoretically they could use the "same" weapons.

So at the base level, they are identical in the damage category with just auto attack.

Druid presses moonfire button, then autoattack. Presses moonfire again when it wears off.

Paladin presses Seal of Command button, and then autoattack, hoping for a proc.

Which of these two can control their bursts?

I'm going to assume you're deliberately misequating druid and paladin autoattack DPS, and simply point out that it's a fallacious assumption. The druid's autoattack and moonfire combination is roughly equivalent to paladin autoattack DPS.

Moonfire, except when spammed, is not burst DPS. When spammed, it's a quick trip to a graveyard for the druid. Neither class has any real controllable burst DPS. This is because they're support classes, a role at which each excells.

Whichever side focus fires the healer first wins.

KILL wrote:nERRRRDDSS!!!!1112

What's this? People talking about video games on a message board are nerds? In other breaking news, the interstellar vaccuum is cold!

Why would they be different exactly?

If a druid and a pally had the same weapon and same amounts of str and agi... why would there be any difference?

Donnel wrote:Why would they be different exactly?

If a druid and a pally had the same weapon and same amounts of str and agi... why would there be any difference?

There might be a world where a druid has the same amounts of strength and agility as a paladin, it's just not Azeroth.