Guns, I know, not again, can't help myself

[Harrison]

I'd giggle uncontrollably if clakar was a smoker.

[Trielelvan]

columbine had armed guards

^ Exactly.

People are going to argue up one side and down the other about keeping their weapons.
I don't give a fuck.
Fix the healthcare system FIRST.
Crazy people will do crazy things with or without consent, rights, bans, privileges, whatever, etc. This country is already weapon-saturated, and even if a ban went through tomorrow, it would be a long, long while before we actually saw the benefits of said ban.

If we fixed the healthcare system in this country so that crazy people were properly cared for and not shoved through fucking prison as a means of controlling those who should really be institutionalized, then you take away the problem instead of fixing a symptom.

[Arlos]

The thing is, smoking basically only kills YOURSELF, and not other people, unless you force them to breathe lots of your second-hand smoke. (Which, by the way, is why so many places now have indoor smoking bans, or at the very least bans on smoking in bars and restaurants.) If guns could only be used to kill YOURSELF with, then hey, there wouldn't be the same calls for gun controls.

As for the NRA's comments yesterday, the local paper had an editorial I thought was spot on:

The ideas spouted by National Rifle Association chief Wayne LaPierre in his disturbing statement Friday morning were so bizarre, so unhinged from reality, that the organization's leadership cannot be considered serious participants in the national discussion over gun rights.

An armed guard, possibly a volunteer, in every school? Where do we even begin?

This idea is an insult to Americans hoping the NRA would keep its promise to offer a "meaningful" contribution to the conversation in the wake of the slaughter of 27 people in Newtown.

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun," LaPierre said. We have 300 million guns in this country. If what LaPierre said were true, and more guns equalled less danger, there would be no gun violence in this country. Nancy Lanza was armed to the teeth, and her own weapons were used to murder her.

Both Columbine and Virginia Tech had armed guards -- as many as a third of public secondary schools already do, though not necessarily for the purpose of stopping gun violence -- and they did no good. We'd have to have 10, or 50 -- heck, why not 100? -- officers in each school to make a difference. And we know it can be difficult for even a well-trained police officer to shoot and kill an armed suspect. Often, innocent bystanders are hurt; in August, nine people were hit by crossfire when New York police tried to stop a gunman outside the Empire State Building.

LaPierre said we arm Secret Service agents and soldiers, so why not guards in every school, too? The man apparently has no understanding of the difference between a war zone and a school filled with young children and dedicated to teaching them how to live productively in the world.

And maybe that's the point. Maybe he genuinely believes the real problem is that the country is a war zone, and too few Americans share that world view. Maybe school uniforms should include bulletproof vests, and we ought to add target shooting to our standardized testing regime, too.

We bet that the vast majority of Americans don't see things that way, and never will. They don't want their children to live in a world ruled by fear and military-grade weaponry.

If it wasn't clear already, Friday's speech made the point extraordinarily well: The NRA is not interested in protecting Americans from gun violence; it has dictated gun policy in this nation for decades, and look at the results. The NRA is, first and foremost, dedicated to selling guns. Everything this wretched group's leaders say must be viewed through that lens.

-Arlos

[Menelvir]

then you take away the problem instead of fixing a symptom.

This.

LaPierre's recommendation is woefully lop-sided and inadequate -- basically, throw enough force at the problem until it's no longer a problem (if bad guy has a gun, get yourself a bigger gun, or more guys with guns). Stone Age problem solving at its finest.

That might work on an individual level (if attacked, counterattack with overwhelming force), but I see it as all but disingenous as a long-term, efficient solution to the larger, more sophisticated problem that he was supposedly addressing.

Instead of simply throwing more guns at the problem, perhaps we could think about:

1) becoming more efficient, facilitating better communication, and streamlining processes to keep guns - any guns - out of the hands of high-risk candidates,

and

2) (as Tri suggested) improve the health care system for those individuals that are high-risk for possible psychotic breaks.

If there were a system to deal with the person in the equation, as opposed to a system that is simply reactionary to the 'gun part' of the equation, it seems to me that the problem could be short-circuited before it ever really became a problem.

In other words, if Adam Lanza's mental state had not deteriorated to the degree that it had, because he had proper medication, or proper therapy, or maybe even just an open channel of communication to someone that gave half a shit about him in the first place, he might never have entertained the idea of killing innocent people.

With the right approach, he might have remained connected to the world, instead of disconnected from it.

[Spazz]

Still want to know how you justify booze but not owning a black rifle ......

[Blackdiam]

Reading this does make me think: If a crazy dude boosted a school bus on the way home from school and then drove it off a cliff killing the same amount of kids, what sort of reaction would the country be having.

That it was a tragedy and a horrific event; but no one would say to ban school busses, and imo rightfully so until 1) school busses transform into an item that is only useful for doing harm and 2) school bus hijackings/car jackings/whatever have you account for the majority of the nation's homicides and violent crimes.

But that won't ever happen because to hijack a bus, you need to exert physical force and actually win a battle where you overpower someone to take control of the vehicle.. unless, of course, you're hijacking someone with the threat of a pistol in their face. Guns are a quick wham bam thank you ma'am with no physicality, no strategy, no thinking, no close physical contact, and little to no risk required allowing it to be very simple to cause permanent damage with no commitment. Essentially, guns are always going to be the lazy crazy's weapon of choice.

Most of the school bus drivers I had as a kid I could have overpowered them when I was 8 years old with my hands the ONE male driver I had was 4' 10" maybe 100 pounds he needed blocks on the pedals and a pillow in the drivers seat to drive the bus

[Lyion]

If we fixed the healthcare system in this country so that crazy people were properly cared for and not shoved through fucking prison as a means of controlling those who should really be institutionalized, then you take away the problem instead of fixing a symptom.

Except our 'healthcare' system is brilliant, and our Doctors and facilities are the best in the world..Likewise, we spend more on services than any other nation in the world. This is a red herring. Bad things will happen. Socializing industries will not prevent that, and will likely degrade the quality of service.

Anyways, we'll see what happens with the Obamacare entitlement, and with the costs associated with it. I'm more concerned with inflation and the quality of life for the people here than the repercussions of the occasional crazy living in a free country.

Now, if we were able to remove the culture of guns then we'd make progress. Sadly, I think the gun lobby is as nuts as the abortion one, who lied through their teeth about wanting it to be 'safe, legal, and rare' just like the NRA continues to mislead about assault weapons and the truth about these gun shows. Both embrace a culture of death in a society that continues to focus more on hedonism.

[Drem]

Thats laughable at best. Just pay your premiums on time and dont have any pre-existing conditions and everything's good! Yeah, brilliant. Ive still never seen an argument from someone in the industry that thinks the current system is ok

People wouldnt go out of their way to get eye surgery in sri lanka if our healthcare system wasnt a fucking joke. All our doctors come from India or something. What exactly is good about our system except the amount of money it makes itself?

[Gypsiyee]

Since when is 37th place considered "brilliant" or "the best"?

[Drem]

Hahahahah

[Spazz]

I still want to know why booze ( you know the thing that serves no purpose no one needs and it kills kills and kills smore) is ok and guns are bad when you can draw so many similarities between the 2. Even has its own culture of nuts.

You dont give 2 shits about a safer society you just dont like guns and id like to see that get admitted so that I can move on and feel better.

Feel good crocodile tears so you guys can show your outrage over what this nut did but not have to actually do anything to make the world a better place and its bullshit.

Heres another booze comparison for you guys. WHen a drunk fucker does something stupid we charge them for the crimes they committed but no one calls for a ban. When a nut with a gun does something they almost get lost in the shuffle over calls for bans. Why is that ?


Lat question why is ok for black schools to have armed guards and metal detectors but its the end of the world to propose these ideas for the white suburbs ? Why do these shootings constantly seem to happen in places where no one can shoot back ? Why do you guys act like fear of someone shooting back is not a major deterrent ? See the pattern its there in front of you. Mass shootings take place where the shooter knows they can go buck wild without having to worry about getting fucked up. When was the last time someone shot up a police station or a gun store ? What was the body count? was it lower? Why ?

Bad guys of all types are cowards and they prefer soft targets. How many gun control laws do we have on the books already? Do we make more everytime something retarded happens? Maybe crazy fuckers and bad guys dont give a shit aboot those laws because it goes against what ever thing they are up to ? Why is this so hard to figure out for you guys?

Oh thats right cuz guns make you feel icky and its so much easier to blame them than to look deeper into our society to figure out where these nightmares are coming from. Is it the pharm industry ? War on drugs ? War like culture ? Poverty? Fucked up healthcare ? What is really causing the violence ? A nigga doesnt just kill someone because there is a gun in the house with them. I think we americans really need to stop talking about greatest country this and that and looking backwards at what we have done and instead look at what we have become.


Why is everyone so broke, why is everyone so fat, what is everyone so stressed out about, why is there so much depression in our country, Why is everyone medicated up to the gills, why are we constantly at war , where did the prosperity and the american dream go ? Who took it? can we take it back ?

Again more questions you should be asking yourself long before you ask why did this guy have an ar 15. Things were obviously goin wrong in that house hold long before he picked up that gun

[Lyion]

Sorry, I disagree with the World Health Report. It is certainly a lot of dodgy metrics. If check expenditure per person, and also do an apples to apples comparison I think we have the best care. We have the best doctor's and hospitals, the best clinics, and especially St Jude.

if you feel Andorra is better than us, that's fine but I disagree. We do also have a screwed up insurance setup, with the same idiotic regulations as the people who created our indecipherable tax code.

[brinstar]

bla bla bla smoking

The thing is, smoking basically only kills YOURSELF, and not other people, unless you force them to breathe lots of your second-hand smoke.

whaaaat? a gun porn addict using a false equivalency??? WELL I NEVER

[Spazz]

Keep picking at that smoking its a lot easier to argue than alcohol.

[Drem]

i'm one of the dudes that thinks guns are stupid. but i also don't care what people do with themselves. i'm a smoker. i drink. i don't care if you wanna have an ak-47 banana clip shotgun in a safe in your room. just don't show it off to me like i'm supposed to care too i guess. i don't shove my joints in peoples' faces that don't smoke

i just really hope we don't try to ban guns. you can just look at chicago to see how a handgun ban works. it makes handgun murder death rate jump up by 40% and makes 96% of gun murders be commited w/ handguns.

i mean, we tried to prohibit alcohol and we all see how that worked out so why try with guns. it'd be a shit show

[Spazz]

Drem i respect that answer.

[Spazz]

http://kontradictions.wordpress.com/201 ... -tell-you/

I thought this was a good read on this subject from the perspective of a fellow lefty gun owner.

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Articles.asp?ID=148

This one im sure is a lot more right wing but I agree with the just of what hes saying. its a read comparing people to sheep wolves and sheepdogs and I think it sums up human beings pretty well.

[Harrison]

http://www.policeone.com/active-shooter ... -is-denial

I'm going to repaste this since the resident nanny state ban crowd wants to blame inanimate objects for complicated societal growth woes, and ignored its existence the first time.

There really is no one to blame but ourselves, in the end. We are at fault for not protecting our children the same way we protect our money, politicians, etc.

[brinstar]

no you moron it got ignored because it's a stupid article

oh and also because the likelihood of you putting forth any sort of intelligent gun argument (even a borrowed one) is roughly equal to the likelihood of the columbus bluejackets winning the superbowl

[Spazz]

.

You guys are so full of fucking shit that it makes me fucking sick. Its not about a safer society and it never has been its about feel good legislation and the reason you dont want to take me up on the debate is that it exposes how full of fucking shit you are.

By your own logic if guns are so dangerous that they gotta go than how are so many other things that kill WAY MORE NIGGAZ good to go. Its your argument and logic that is flawed not mine.

If you cant tell me why assault weapons ( kills next to no one yearly) need to go but jack daniels (how many deaths a year?)is for the betterment of society than we really have no purpose with this conversation because your words are hollow.

Im being ignored because what ever argument you make I can make right back at you and that shows the flaws in your thoughts.


Dont argue with harrison come at me bro.

[brinstar]

because that argument is retarded and has been destroyed a hundred times

cars were not made to kill
swimming pools were not made to kill
baseball bats were not made to kill
alcohol was not made to kill
cigarettes were not made to kill

guns were made to kill, end of fucking story

deer rifle to fill your deep-freeze? knock yourself out. shotties or pistols for self-defense? there's at least an argument for those. military-style semiautomatic assault weapons with 100-round drums? go fuck yourself.

[Spazz]

Those types of guns you want to ban dont kill very many people a year. Alcohol does. Your not destroying shit Your showing that your arguments are based off emotions and not facts. Any fact you can say about an assault rifle you can say about alcohol.

You can say smoking only gets the user
we need cars
bats are for a game

But what exactly does society need alcohol for ?

Why wont you address how many people are killed yearly by it?

You got a much better chance being killed by a drunk than a bullet so why doesnt alcohol scare you like guns ? How many niggas you know had there life ruined by a gun ? Compare that to how many you know been destroyed by the drink and I would think the huge hole in your logic would be apparent to you. Again how many people die a day from gunfire ? How many die a day from booze ?

Why is one thing that millions of people use without a problem such a huge deal and the other one you wont even address ?

[Arlos]

You know why the more knowledgeable among us are disdaining the idea of armed guards at schools? I can give you 3 easy examples:

1) Columbine *HAD* an armed guard present on campus at the time of the killings there. Did it stop the attack or slow it down in any way? No.

2) Virginia Tech has an entire police force present on campus. Yes, armed. Yet, all those people are STILL dead.

3) Fort Hood was a MILITARY base, full of armed people. Yep, still a mass shooting.

It's a ridiculous argument, and utterly nonsensical. This is why it was dismissed as soon as it was made.


Spazz: We're not addressing it because they are not even remotely equivalent. THEY ARE NOT AT ALL THE SAME THING. Stop trying to equate them. I won't address an argument that is as baseless as that one any more than I would address an argument that we need to stop the influence of martians in fixing games in the NFL. Can alcohol cause problems? Sure, no one disputes that. No one disputes that people who drink and drive deserve to get the book thrown at them. But barring getting into a car, I can't kill 27 people with a bottle of Bacardi. I CAN kill 27 people with a single gun with an extended clip. Get it?

-Arlos

[brinstar]

spazz you can't even see your own double standard. how can you claim alcohol kills people but guns don't?

alcohol is only deadly to those who drink too much of it. it is deadly because it can kill you via alcohol poisoning or through long-term abuse which pwns your brain and your internal organ glop. in this way it is no different than cigarettes. if guns only hurt their owners, this thread wouldn't exist. alcohol-RELATED fatalities happen when irresponsible people don't want the inconvenience of going back downtown to get their car the next morning, or when they think they aren't too drunk to drive, or when they drink on the job and crash a forklift or a jet. these are all totally preventable, but the fact is that alcohol is not directly responsible for any of these things.

but before you say, "AHA brinstar! you have just made my argument for me! gun-RELATED fatalities only happen when irresponsible PEOPLE break the law!" let ME once again point out something YOU have been ignoring this whole time: the purpose of alcohol is not to kill or to cause others harm. meanwhile, literally the only purpose of guns - the sole reason they were invented - IS to kill or to cause others harm. can you not see the difference? "i bought alcohol because it was designed to inebriate, but bob tried to drive home and t-boned a schoolbus" is tragic and preventable and idiotic, but there is no corollary statement with guns. "i bought this AR-15 because it was designed to kill lots of people very quickly, but then my brother used it to kill lots of people very quickly"??? you played EQ, remember the phrase "working as intended"? we are talking about an object which literally cannot be used for its only purpose without breaking the law - so why does it even exist?

again, as i said - if we're talking about hunting to feed your family, no sweat. if we're talking about defending your home from intruders via a shotty or a pistol, i don't have a terribly strong opinion. but until you or anyone else can name me one good reason for a civilian to own an assault rifle with 100-round drum, you're just another bitch sock puppet with NRA's hand up your ass.



*response to arlos ninjapost*

no shit. and even if it wasn't a stupid idea, why stop at schools? let's put cops at:

• movie theatres
• grocery stores
• restaurants
• post offices
• churches, mosques, temples, etc
• military bases (o wait lol)
• every single workplace in the USA

[Spazz]

Arlos thats both bullshit and retarded. Perhaps drunks dont kill people 20 something at a time but how many people die a day to each


My other question is what good does it do society ? Why do we need it to remain legal and available? Why is the thing that is more dangerous and kilsl more people completely ok but something that doesnt kill very many people a year at all has to go ? WHy dont I want an assault rifle ban> I see it as superficial doing nothing in this country but taking away my rights. The fact of the matter is your more in danger from a billion things dialy so to single out "assault rifles" as something that has to go is fuckin retarded.

You guys are still completely and totally full of shit.


Also just to be a smart ass bats are ok cuz they have a sporting purpose even though they are the go to assault weapon in america but again the object that barely kills anyone a year has to go, You guys are arguing with me from an emotional standpoint and your argument doesnt hold up at all . You cant tell me on one hand you want society to be safer and on the other ignore real dangers if you want me to take you seriously.