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xaoshaen wrote:I have to wonder if some of you people actually watch football. I'm not exactly the biggest Vick fan in the world, but he's not as bad as you make him out to be. Right now, he's slightly more valuable than the average NFL quarterback, thanks almost entirely to his running prowess. His passing DVOA is poor, but he was over 200 yards three times last season, Tikker.

I'm guessing Malluas isn't familiar with the beginning of Steve Young's career. It's way too early to write Vick off. Give him a few years and see if he can turn into a quality NFL quarterback.

Yep, people like to down Vick, but the bottom line is this. When he is starting, the Falcons usually win. Nothing else to be said really.

Minrott wrote:I probably judge him too harshly because I let my idea of a good fantasy player sometimes get in the way of my judgement of a good football player.

Oh, I'm not arguing that he's a good NFL quarterback. Right now, he's contributing at a slightly above average rate for an NFL quarterback, which means he gets way too much hype for his performance. He's certaintly not a Stewart clone though.

xaoshaen wrote:I have to wonder if some of you people actually watch football. I'm not exactly the biggest Vick fan in the world, but he's not as bad as you make him out to be. Right now, he's slightly more valuable than the average NFL quarterback, thanks almost entirely to his running prowess. His passing DVOA is poor, but he was over 200 yards three times last season, Tikker.

I'm guessing Malluas isn't familiar with the beginning of Steve Young's career. It's way too early to write Vick off. Give him a few years and see if he can turn into a quality NFL quarterback.

wow, over 200 yards 3 times in a season? what a fucking stud


as for steve young, you can't compare playing QB for the worst franchise in a decade (possibly generation) to Vick with the falcons

the falcons have talent at the skill positions as well as a decent defense

xaoshaen wrote:

Minrott wrote:I probably judge him too harshly because I let my idea of a good fantasy player sometimes get in the way of my judgement of a good football player.

Oh, I'm not arguing that he's a good NFL quarterback. Right now, he's contributing at a slightly above average rate for an NFL quarterback, which means he gets way too much hype for his performance. He's certaintly not a Stewart clone though.

No

Kordell Stewart was a better passer than Vick

ps, don't get me wrong, I wouldn't have either one of them as my starting QB

I've been saying it all along, Xao, but no one else agrees with me. If I had one QB to pick right now and start, it would be Michael Vick. He plays in a shitty pass offense in Atlanta and doesn't have some of the weapons the ''prime-time QB's" have. He gets it done and wins (which is most important).

I completely disagree with all your observations of Vick and his so called "skills." I live in Georgia, which means I have to watch the Falcons play EVERY weekend. Of course I don't have to watch them, but I love football more than any other sport and I don't hate the Dirty Birds... But, I watch a lot of Falcons football and I'll say again that Vick is a shitty SHITTY QB. He'll have a wide open reciever and throw the ball 20 yards in front of him, or drop the ball 20 damn yards behind him.

He's horrible at calling audiables because he CAN'T READ A DEFENSE.

Everyone loves to comment on his running skill... what skill? Yeah, when he's playing a team with a shitty D-line he can run all day.... but put him up against a solid D and he's subpar at best.

Vick is great for marketing, period. As a player - I can't say he's completely talentless or he wouldn't be in the NFL...

But, let's be honest. He's not great - and I have a hard time even calling him "good."

Ok - that is when he's not hurt. Hell, Brady and Manning take some pretty damn hard hits - but they're up and in the huddle in a few seconds. Vick takes a hit HALF as hard and he's out for three games.

Michael Vick is pure 100% hype. The NFC has been fairly weak the past couple of years. I gar you that if the Falcons had been in the AFC last year with Pits, NE and Idny they wouldn't have even made the play offs - and if they did by some chance they'd have been eliminated in the first round.

Vick is all about marketing. He goes out on the field against a shitty team and does some flashy moves and foot work and puts on a good show. But, when they face a solid team he either gets "hurt" or gets shut down.

He sucks, period.

Tadpole wrote:I've been saying it all along, Xao, but no one else agrees with me. If I had one QB to pick right now and start, it would be Michael Vick. He plays in a shitty pass offense in Atlanta and doesn't have some of the weapons the ''prime-time QB's" have. He gets it done and wins (which is most important).

the pass offense is shitty because Vick is the QB, no other reason

offensive scheme/style/etc doesn't force you to miss open receivers, wuwu

Vicks athetic ability alone makes him a scary player. He is indeed a mediocre QB in terms of accuracy, but he has phenomental arm strength and his acceleration makes him a threat any time.

Plus, Vick is only 25. While that's midlife for a running back, of which Vick is moreso, it's very young in a QBs tenure.

He indeed is overhyped and not nearly in the league of a Manning, Mcnabb, or Brady but he does get the Ws. I absolutely would not compare him to Young, though, as even when he was primarily a running threat, Young was always an accurate passer, just not great at reading Ds. Vicks problem is he just isn't accurate as a passer.

The big question is will Vick become more accurate and take the next step, or stay a mostly RB playing QB.

if vick was to improve to a mediocre passer (brian griese, brad johnson, trent dilfer, jay fiedler, etc) he'd be fucking scary as a QB

you wouldn't be able to defend against him at all

that being said, he's probably one of the poorest (maybe the worst) pure passer in the NFL

I just don't think you can win a championship with a QB who only has athleticism

I don't even think he's really all that great as a scrambler/runner.

The Eagles shut him down last year by simply closing up the left side of the field. They forced Vick to run to the right and shut him down.

He's fast, yes... and he can cause defenders to miss... but he's going to have to do more than make the play offs in a very weak NFC for me to change my opinion.

Hey Slainn, your Bills is winning now that they benched Losman. Hell they're in first place.

Yeah - I figured Losman would struggle... this would have been his first year as a full time starter... I'm not sure they've really given him a solid chance, but it's about winning... and now we're winning.

If the Bills keep playing good ball - they might just make the play offs this year. Hell we might even win the division.

Jets aren't going to do anything... Miami isn't looking to great... New England is looking terrible... even with Brewski coming back I'm not sure they're gonna take it all this year. So - I do think the Bills actually have a good chance to do something this year.

Phlegm wrote:Hey Slainn, your Bills is winning now that they benched Losman. Hell they're in first place.

Wrong, Patriots are are tied with them!

Susvain wrote:

Phlegm wrote:Hey Slainn, your Bills is winning now that they benched Losman. Hell they're in first place.

Wrong, Patriots are are tied with them!

Susvain, you are a retard. Patriots and Bills are tied for first place still meant that the Bills are in first place.

Tikker wrote:

xaoshaen wrote:I have to wonder if some of you people actually watch football. I'm not exactly the biggest Vick fan in the world, but he's not as bad as you make him out to be. Right now, he's slightly more valuable than the average NFL quarterback, thanks almost entirely to his running prowess. His passing DVOA is poor, but he was over 200 yards three times last season, Tikker.

I'm guessing Malluas isn't familiar with the beginning of Steve Young's career. It's way too early to write Vick off. Give him a few years and see if he can turn into a quality NFL quarterback.

wow, over 200 yards 3 times in a season? what a fucking stud


as for steve young, you can't compare playing QB for the worst franchise in a decade (possibly generation) to Vick with the falcons

the falcons have talent at the skill positions as well as a decent defense

thank you

oh and thank you dallas clark for gettin 20+ yards of recieving.. 5-1 baby (with 3 guys gettin no points)

Tikker wrote:wow, over 200 yards 3 times in a season? what a fucking stud

Just pointing out an incorrect stat.

as for steve young, you can't compare playing QB for the worst franchise in a decade (possibly generation) to Vick with the falcons

Right. Because the Falcons have been so brilliant over the last decade. It's possible you didn't see Steve Young play early in his career. He ran far, far too often and wasn't a particularly accurate passer. It wasn't until he learned to use the threat of the run to set up the pass that he became a great quarterback.

the falcons have talent at the skill positions as well as a decent defense

The Falcons have exceptional talent in the running game, which includes Vick. Their offensive line is not particularly adept at pass-blocking, and they'd been relying on Peerless Price as their number one wideout until Jenkins blossomed last year. Right now, it's entirely possible that their tight end is their biggest receiving threat.

Play by play success doesn't lie, and it's not a matter of someone's opinion. The numbers say that Vick makes roughly a league average contribution to his team, largely on the strength of his running.

Tadpole wrote:I've been saying it all along, Xao, but no one else agrees with me. If I had one QB to pick right now and start, it would be Michael Vick. He plays in a shitty pass offense in Atlanta and doesn't have some of the weapons the ''prime-time QB's" have. He gets it done and wins (which is most important).

It's possible we're miscommunicating here. Vick is a league-average contributor to his team's success. That means that I'd take roughly half the quarterbacks in the league ahead of him if I could choose. Given that his style of play entails a significantly higher injury risk than most quarterbacks not named Rex, I'd probably drop him several slots on my list.

Tikker wrote:the pass offense is shitty because Vick is the QB, no other reason

offensive scheme/style/etc doesn't force you to miss open receivers, wuwu

The offensive line and the wide recievers contribute significantly to the problem. When you can't count on your wideouts to be where they are supposed to be, and your pass protection breaks down early, it's going to affect the quarterback's success rate.

xaoshaen wrote:

Tikker wrote:the pass offense is shitty because Vick is the QB, no other reason

offensive scheme/style/etc doesn't force you to miss open receivers, wuwu

The offensive line and the wide recievers contribute significantly to the problem. When you can't count on your wideouts to be where they are supposed to be, and your pass protection breaks down early, it's going to affect the quarterback's success rate.

And yet they did great with Schaub in there playing New England, so that theory is arguable.

Lyion wrote:

xaoshaen wrote:

Tikker wrote:the pass offense is shitty because Vick is the QB, no other reason

offensive scheme/style/etc doesn't force you to miss open receivers, wuwu

The offensive line and the wide recievers contribute significantly to the problem. When you can't count on your wideouts to be where they are supposed to be, and your pass protection breaks down early, it's going to affect the quarterback's success rate.

And yet they did great with Schaub in there playing New England, so that theory is arguable.

Peerless Price didn't do well, as he's no longer with the team, and New England's pass defense is the fourth worst in the league right now. Of particular note is the ineffectiveness of their pass rush, with Seymour and Bruschi out. Atlanta's second leading receiver in the game was their tight end. Dex White, their second starting receiver, had a whopping fourteen yards on one catch, albeit for a touchdown.

Yes, Schaub still had a good game, but it doesn't negate the criticisms leveled against the rest of the Atlanta passing offense.

[EDIT] I only mention Price because I'd brought him up as one of the problems plaguing Vick in the past. His release should help whomever is under center for the Falcons.[/EDIT]

xaoshaen wrote:

Tikker wrote:the pass offense is shitty because Vick is the QB, no other reason

offensive scheme/style/etc doesn't force you to miss open receivers, wuwu

The offensive line and the wide recievers contribute significantly to the problem. When you can't count on your wideouts to be where they are supposed to be, and your pass protection breaks down early, it's going to affect the quarterback's success rate.

You can't blame every single overthrown, or underthrown ball on the wide receivers


Peerless Price was a good receiver until he had Vick as a QB

Vick repeatedly misses Crumpler, and he's regarded as one of the better receiving tight ends in the league

Phlegm wrote:

Susvain wrote:

Phlegm wrote:Hey Slainn, your Bills is winning now that they benched Losman. Hell they're in first place.

Wrong, Patriots are are tied with them!

Susvain, you are a retard. Patriots and Bills are tied for first place still meant that the Bills are in first place.

I thought you meant sole posession!

Tikker wrote:

xaoshaen wrote:

Tikker wrote:the pass offense is shitty because Vick is the QB, no other reason

offensive scheme/style/etc doesn't force you to miss open receivers, wuwu

The offensive line and the wide recievers contribute significantly to the problem. When you can't count on your wideouts to be where they are supposed to be, and your pass protection breaks down early, it's going to affect the quarterback's success rate.

You can't blame every single overthrown, or underthrown ball on the wide receivers


Peerless Price was a good receiver until he had Vick as a QB

Vick repeatedly misses Crumpler, and he's regarded as one of the better receiving tight ends in the league

Price was considered one of the best he went to atlanta and Vick destroyed him.

if you actually watch the games he rountinly makes bad passes on over the middle and the outs. He is a good deep ball thrower, but mistakes there aren't as big of a deal cause he outthrows people so no one can get the ball.

His brother is a great over the middle passer. He isnt. BUt until QB's like him (McNabb and brooks) learn how to pass with decent recievers not great ones... they will never win anything.

Look at brady he dosn't have a superstar reciever and he has won 3 superbowls. and is super accurate. You can't say Vicks Oline is bad cause they are near the best.

And now that people are learning to take his running away he is really showing he isn't worthy to be a top QB.

and Btw you can be a crappy QB but if you don't make mistakes (aka INTs fumbles) you can have a winning record. Vick sucks but he doesn't make turnovers thats why they win. BUt you can't count on him for any real drive to tie a game or win it cause he can't throw accurately.

Same with McNabb no owens.. McNabb is worthless.