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Christian means you believe in Christ...not necessarily in spirits (unless it's the communion wine )

Yamori wrote:Doesn't having his only son tortured and murdered as a prerequisite for opening up the gates of heaven to mankind seem kind of pointless and cruel? :p


Man this god guy sounds like a dick

I would so NOT buy him a beer and play mortal kombat with him.

He would so kick your ass in mortal kombat.

Martrae wrote:Christian means you believe in Christ...not necessarily in spirits (unless it's the communion wine )

You have part of it right, but there's more to it other than just "believing in Christ."

Mindia wrote:

And I'm not saying that to be a jerkass. I'm saying it because the Holy Spirit was present at that time, and the disciples knew it because they were inspired by the holy spirit. They also knew that Jesus often referred to God as "The Father," and that the "Father" was present in the holy spirit. They also knew that Jesus was in the Father, and the Father in Him. That is a trinitarian viewpoint right there. I don't see how the holy trinity could possibly be a 9th century Spanish claim or invention when the holy trinity concept was around during Jesus' time, and continued on after His death on the cross.

*edited to add this*

I don't see how any Christian can claim to be a "Christian" if he/she does not believe in the Holy Trinity.

Too lazy to keep repeating myself... so I'll just go back to my old debates:

Vonkaar wrote:What about the Protestants? They simply took the Catholic Bible and 'reformed' it, right? Wrong. Luther called the Epistle of James "an epistle of straw." He voted to have Revelations and Hebrews 'exed' out of existence, although he loved 1 Maccabees. John Calvin was another reformer that considered Revelations to be a "motley group of raving lunacy." Heroes of reformation?

The protestant translation itself is even more 'holy' (read: hole-filled) than the 'creation' of the Bible. This would be another 2 pages of writing... I'll be happy to get 'further' into it if you want. For now, we'll stick with one of the most important verses in Protestant faith: 1 John 5:7.

KJV: "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, The Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

The cornerstone verse behind the belief in the Trinity.

Erasmus of Rotterdam was the first publisher of the Greek New-Testament. For some reason, he left that verse out. Uh oh, panic time for the trinitarianists... Erasmus defended this omission by saying that he never saw an original Greek manuscript that contained the verse. Of course, he immediately had his nose shoved in a 'published' Greek Bible that contained it. He always suspected a fraud, but was unable to prove it... so he added the verse anyway. This book was to become the Textus Receptus: the 'official' Bible that became the 'standard' for later translation into the official English Bible. Even today, no Greek manuscript has ever been found to contain the verse. We now know that the whole verse was a Spanish invention... sometime in the late 4th century. The oldest recording of the verse appears in the manuscript of the Latin Vulgate, sometime around the year 800.

And earlier in that discussion...

Vonkaar wrote:The Council of Nicaea (325) was the most fun of all... Constantine was the most 'holy' Roman Emperor. He was a kind, gentle Emperor... noted for being the first "Christian" emperor. Kind... Gentle... Forgiving... Trustworthy... many things said about 'other' emperors. The only 'good' thing that can be said about this 'great' ruler was that he was Christian =p. Soon after being converted to Christianity he had his 'co-emperor' Licinius and his son strangled, although he promised them their lives. He then murdered his wife. Next, he decided he needed to figure out the 'truth' of the Trinity. Council! Cong, Nicaea - birthplace of Christian Trinitarianism, voted and decided on by Man.

As far as, "Real Christians"... those that don't believe in the Trinity might say that they can't see how 'you' call yourself a Christian because you believe in the Trinity. But then, they'd only say that if they were judgmental sinners, now wouldn't they?

That still doesn't negate the fact that the trinitarianism concept was present before the 9th C. Bang your head against the wall all you want. It was around long before it was "labeled" as the trinity... before Constantine, before the Council of Nicaea, and before the epistle of Vonkaar the unholy goatslayer. The concept of the trinity was not added to the bible by anybody 300+ years after the resurrection of Jesus. You can find examples of trinitarian concepts in many different books of the New Testament...

Matt. 28:18, Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit

2 Cor. 13:14, The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.

Eph. 4:4-7, There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.

Jude 20-21, "But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith; praying in the Holy Spirit; keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life."

Vonk, I don't think that you're a bad guy, or an unholy person. I know you're very analytical, very skeptical, and very cynical. You are also very educated in biblical matters and I respect you for that. But at the end of the day, it all comes down to what you said in your long-winded, yet tastefully prepared, post of 2004... Faith. We can debate points of reference all day long, but Faith is not debatable. I have Faith that trinitarian concepts were part of the Bible long before it was labeled "the holy trinity" by anybody or culture, and therefore, it does not matter to me what people say about it. Nor can it be proven to me that the trinitarian concept was "added" by anybody hundreds of years later. It just ain't happenin.

hear oh isreal the lord thy G-d is ONE

Thats great and all, but why judge others by saying the're not Christians if they don't believe in the Holy Trinity. The whole debate between the two of you started because of that particular statement.

If it's all about Faith, then take the bible as a great story. The Bible has been rewritten by man way too many times to actually live it word for word. Use your faith and just take the general meaning from it, and make the best of your life from what you have learned.

God will forgive you if you screw up once in a while.

History of the concept of Trinity. You'd think if those bits about the Holy Spirit was in those books of the bible from the beginning then it would have been well known to all scholars and priests. There wouldn't have been a need for orders and decrees for people to worship the Trinity.
http://www.bibletopics.com/BIBLESTUDY/53.htm


You really should learn to read Greek....I'd imagine it'd open your eyes quite a bit to the nuances that were originally there.

Kaemon wrote:Thats great and all, but why judge others by saying the're not Christians if they don't believe in the Holy Trinity. The whole debate between the two of you started because of that particular statement.

If it's all about Faith, then take the bible as a great story. The Bible has been rewritten by man way too many times to actually live it word for word. Use your faith and just take the general meaning from it, and make the best of your life from what you have learned.

God will forgive you if you screw up once in a while.

Let's put it this way. I don't know any Christians who do not believe in the "holy trinity," except Mormons. And IMO Mormons are in a gray area concerning the definition of a "Christian."

Martrae wrote:History of the concept of Trinity. You'd think if those bits about the Holy Spirit was in those books of the bible from the beginning then it would have been well known to all scholars and priests. There wouldn't have been a need for orders and decrees for people to worship the Trinity.
http://www.bibletopics.com/BIBLESTUDY/53.htm


You really should learn to read Greek....I'd imagine it'd open your eyes quite a bit to the nuances that were originally there.

I've seen Greek meanings to several things in the bible in my bible study. In fact, my bible has Greek meanings at the bottom of each page. There is nothing about Greek that has changed the meaning of the holy trinity.

That's your problem Mindia, You think that you can only be a Christian if you adhere to the boundries of any organized mainstream religion. The truth of the matter is you can be a Chistian and not follow a particular sect.

I consider myself Christian and don't believe in a 'Holy Trinity'.

I love how you ignored my point and over half my post.

Learn the Truf, Mofos!

http://media1.break.com/dnet/media/cont ... ftruth.wmv

Martrae wrote:I consider myself Christian and don't believe in a 'Holy Trinity'.

I love how you ignored my point and over half my post.

I'm not going to argue or debate anything having to do with Christianity with you or anyone else anymore here on the NT. You stick with what you want to believe, and I'll stick with what scripture and theologians teach me.

Still implying that I'm wrong and you're right, I see. Perhaps, if you weren't so sure you had all the answers you might be able to ask some of the right questions.

Martrae wrote:Still implying that I'm wrong and you're right, I see. Perhaps, if you weren't so sure you had all the answers you might be able to ask some of the right questions.

Yes, I do think I'm right. And you think you're right. Bid deal. We all have opinions, right?

Thon wrote:Does Jesus's sacrifice seem kind of half assed to anyone else? dunno if anyone else asked this, but it's been bugging me. i mean he's the son of god, maybe god himself. and he gets nailed to a cross to take the whole world's sins on his back.

if he's really omniscient he would've known what was gonna happen, so it's suicide to follow the path that leads to his death.

and since he's god, he knows he's going to heaven when he dies. if i knew heaven existed and i was going there upon my death, i'd go play in traffic right now.

You would think that Jesus being all powerful would have known how to make num-chuks and would have kicked some jew ass all over the place instead of getting nailed to the cross.

This is a serious topic once you get to thinking about it.

Ralf, go watch the Video I posted... Sheesh, it's the best part of this thread..

Actually, I'll go start my own thread with it.

Mindia wrote:

Martrae wrote:Still implying that I'm wrong and you're right, I see. Perhaps, if you weren't so sure you had all the answers you might be able to ask some of the right questions.

Yes, I do think I'm right. And you think you're right. Bid deal. We all have opinions, right?

Partially true. I allow for the fact that I might be wrong and others right and so I question and gather facts. You, on the other hand, are convinced you've got all the answers and so have ceased questioning.

Phlegm wrote:

Yamori wrote:Doesn't having his only son tortured and murdered as a prerequisite for opening up the gates of heaven to mankind seem kind of pointless and cruel? :p


Man this god guy sounds like a dick

I would so NOT buy him a beer and play mortal kombat with him.

He would so kick your ass in mortal kombat.

fuck no

I'd pin him into a corner and just keep leg sweeping him until he died


the true technique of a kung fu master~~

Yamori wrote:

Phlegm wrote:

Yamori wrote:Doesn't having his only son tortured and murdered as a prerequisite for opening up the gates of heaven to mankind seem kind of pointless and cruel? :p


Man this god guy sounds like a dick

I would so NOT buy him a beer and play mortal kombat with him.

He would so kick your ass in mortal kombat.

fuck no

I'd pin him into a corner and just keep leg sweeping him until he died


the true technique of a kung fu master~~

Behold the power of cheese!

Yamori wrote:

Phlegm wrote:

Yamori wrote:Doesn't having his only son tortured and murdered as a prerequisite for opening up the gates of heaven to mankind seem kind of pointless and cruel? :p


Man this god guy sounds like a dick

I would so NOT buy him a beer and play mortal kombat with him.

He would so kick your ass in mortal kombat.

fuck no

I'd pin him into a corner and just keep leg sweeping him until he died


the true technique of a kung fu master~~

He's immortal. You can't beat him in mortal kombat.

Martrae wrote:

Mindia wrote:

Martrae wrote:Still implying that I'm wrong and you're right, I see. Perhaps, if you weren't so sure you had all the answers you might be able to ask some of the right questions.

Yes, I do think I'm right. And you think you're right. Bid deal. We all have opinions, right?

Partially true. I allow for the fact that I might be wrong and others right and so I question and gather facts. You, on the other hand, are convinced you've got all the answers and so have ceased questioning.

You have the right to your opinion.

Martrae, I'm curious, what exactly do you believe about the Holy Trinity then?

I believe that there is much in the Bible that no human mind can possibly comprehend. I believe that God, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus are one but seperate at the same time. I don't exaclty understand it, but I believe it.

Jesus is the son of God.

The Holy Spirit is a projection of God, since he cannot set foot on earth

God is God.

To treat the Holy Spirit as a separate entity from God is silly. Me on the telephone is still me, it's not some new version of me.