Episcopal diocese vote favors breakaway.

Spazz · Post by **Spazz** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 9:25 pm

Hell im an athiest and argueing to argue. I just dont get the exclusion and hate and it really bothers me.

10sun · Post by **10sun** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 9:38 pm

spazz wrote:I just dont get the exclusion and hate and it really bothers me.

I agree with this statement.

Post by **Ganzo** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 10:09 pm

Exclusion is a part of life, and there is no hate, it is possible to discuss a situation without having strong feelings like hate attached

Post by **Arlos** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 10:26 pm

Well, the thing is, Ganzo, for many it DOES descend into hate, just because of the person's orientation. FOr you, sure, no, but for others...

-Arlos

Zanchief · Post by **Zanchief** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 7:21 am

Ganzo wrote:Exclusion is a part of life, and there is no hate, it is possible to discuss a situation without having strong feelings like hate attached

You really don't represent the average Religions follower though. I know a lot more Mindia's then I do Ganzos, sadly.

KaiineTN · Post by **KaiineTN** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 7:52 am

I bet the majority of Christians who are passionately against homosexuality and what not don't know basic things about the world outside of Christianity, for example, I bet many many many Christians don't realize how closely related Christianity and Islam really are.

I'd say that, by far, most fundamentalists are intentionally ignorant, they like it that way, and wont change. Having answers and things to believe in gives them comfort and purpose, and they want to get rid of anything that challenges that.

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the educated and seemingly "tolerant" Christians out there are just putting on a front. I guess we'll find out when the family's emo son comes home walking funny and holding hands with a boy.

You know, now that I think of it, a gay preacher would be incredibly entertaining, and I'd probably go to church just to hear him. It would be like back in the Army when we had an incredibly gay black dude teaching all the new guys various marching crap. Everyone was holding back laughs while hearing him "shout" orders.

Moral of the story? You don't have to hate them, just laugh at them! Sure, that's still bad, but not as bad, right? ;p

Narrock · Post by **Narrock** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 10:31 am

spazz wrote:I dont give a shit what the book says. I somehow have a hard time beleiving christ would turn people that wanted a relationship with him away.

There's nothing wrong with a preacher breaking away from a sect that is homo-friendly for the purpose of wanting a traditional family-oriented congregation.

Post by **Ganzo** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:42 pm

Flink, that post was very :gaymeter:

Narrock · Post by **Narrock** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:04 pm

Ganzo wrote:Flink, that post was very

Post by **Arlos** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:37 pm

That's not really the question we're asking, though, Mindia. We're asking if Christ HIMSELF would have turned away open homosexuals or not. I claim no, because of the well-documented way he treated Lepers, who were viewed as even worse by the populace back then.

What's YOUR opinion on that question?

-Arlos

Post by **Ganzo** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:42 pm

Even though you didn't ask here's my opinion arlos: Christ most likely would have welcomed them with open arms, however this does not change the rules of a congregation. Christian church is as far from what would Christ say or do, as they could get, so situation is purely democratical. If majority of congregation is against it, it's out the door and form your own congregation.

vonkaar · Post by **vonkaar** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:47 pm

Ganzo wrote:even though you didn't ask here's my opinion arlor: Christ most likely would have welcomed them with open arms, however this does not change the rules of a congregation. Christian church is as far from what would Christ say or do, as they could get, so situation is purely democratical. If majority of congregation is against it, it's out the door and form your own congregation.

omg, post of the month

Although, I see Mindia coming in to describe why SDA is the 'closest thing' and totally derailing this. But now I've baited him, so... scratch that... We'll just say... I agree with the above post 100%.

Post by **Arlos** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:47 pm

Ahhh, but if Christ would have welcomed them, and modern churches are supposed to be just extended followers of christ, what gives them the right to exclude people Christ would have included?

See, it's that kind of thing where I have my biggest issues with organized churches: They have let the dogma get in the way of the actual message. Some of Jesus's teachings are really beautiful, and worthy of anyone trying to live up to or follow. (and I say that as a dedicated Pagan) But twist them around through one or two thousand years of indoctrinarial dogma, and you get "followers" who are capable of things like blowing up abortion clinics in his name, or founding something like the Spanish Inquisition, which is about as far from the original message that you can get.

-Arlos

Post by **Ganzo** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:54 pm

arlos wrote:See, it's that kind of thing where I have my biggest issues with organized churches: They have let the dogma get in the way of the actual message.
-Arlos

That is the reason i do not go to church/temple/sinagogue/mosque etc..., nor belong to any organised congregation/religion.

I read my Holly Books and talk to God on my own.

Post by **Arlos** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:00 pm

In that way, your method of worship and mine are much closer than you might think. No holy books here akin to the bible, but I definitely talk to the divine on my own without need for someone to filter and/or interpret the message for me.

Honestly, that was one of the things that most drew me to paganism. The only dogma is that there is NO dogma. It's understood and recognized that everyone has their own path to walk, and thir own way of connecting to the wider universe, as it were, and there's no One Right True Way. There's other factors that drew me, of course, but that was a big one.

-Arlos

Naethyn · Post by **Naethyn** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:03 pm

Narrock wrote:Since when is embracing homosexuality a Christian principle?

Jesus wrote:"The foremost is, 'Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' "The second is this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." (NAS, Mark 12:28-31)

These are the only "principles" of christianity. I recommend you read galatians.

Post by **Ganzo** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:03 pm

It is a path of a Kabbalist as well. Read All, Question Everything, Find Answers and Evolve on Your Own.

Post by **Ganzo** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:05 pm

Naethyn wrote:
Narrock wrote:Since when is embracing homosexuality a Christian principle?

Jesus wrote:"The foremost is, 'Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' "The second is this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." (NAS, Mark 12:28-31)

These are the only "principles" of christianity. I recommend you read galatians.

Those are actualy principles of Judaism, later plagiorised by christians.

Also Mark wrote, not Jesus

Naethyn · Post by **Naethyn** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:07 pm

Ganzo wrote:
Naethyn wrote:
Narrock wrote:Since when is embracing homosexuality a Christian principle?

Jesus wrote:"The foremost is, 'Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' "The second is this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." (NAS, Mark 12:28-31)

These are the only "principles" of christianity. I recommend you read galatians.
Those are actualy principles of Judaism, later plagiorised by christians.

Also Mark wrote, not Jesus

I wasn't aware that Judaism followed the new testament.

Post by **Ganzo** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:10 pm

Read Old Testament closer

Post by **Arlos** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:13 pm

If I recall correctly, Naethyn, Jesus in that passage was responding to a question of WHICH of the comandments that already existed were most important, and that's what hsi answer was. They weren't new commandments, they were just the one that Jesus felt were the MOST important of all of them.

I could be wrong, of course, since it's obviously been some time since I read the Bible, but that's how I recall that situation, anyway.

-Arlos

Naethyn · Post by **Naethyn** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:24 pm

The Council's letter to Gentile Believers

Acts: "28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: 29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality."

Guess these select few appointed by Jesus decided this. Interesting.

Narrock · Post by **Narrock** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 6:20 pm

arlos wrote:That's not really the question we're asking, though, Mindia. We're asking if Christ HIMSELF would have turned away open homosexuals or not. I claim no, because of the well-documented way he treated Lepers, who were viewed as even worse by the populace back then.

What's YOUR opinion on that question?

-Arlos

Homosexuality has been condemned in the bible many different times. Just because Jesus didn't "say it" directly, doesn't mean He approves of it. He did mention, however, that sexually immoral people will fall short of the glory of God, and homosexuality is very much considered "immoral" in the biblical sense. So, if a pastor wants to break away from a church who welcomes and/or embraces homosexuals, he has every right to do that. If gays started coming to my church, I would find another church, and that's how most people feel about it whether you want to admit it or not. Let them create a "Gay Church of America" so they can have their own place to "worship" a God who is accepting of their lifestyle.

Tikker · Post by **Tikker** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 7:51 pm

Narrock wrote:
arlos wrote:That's not really the question we're asking, though, Mindia. We're asking if Christ HIMSELF would have turned away open homosexuals or not. I claim no, because of the well-documented way he treated Lepers, who were viewed as even worse by the populace back then.

What's YOUR opinion on that question?

-Arlos

Homosexuality has been condemned in the bible many different times. Just because Jesus didn't "say it" directly, doesn't mean He approves of it. He did mention, however, that sexually immoral people will fall short of the glory of God, and homosexuality is very much considered "immoral" in the biblical sense. So, if a pastor wants to break away from a church who welcomes and/or embraces homosexuals, he has every right to do that. If gays started coming to my church, I would find another church, and that's how most people feel about it whether you want to admit it or not. Let them create a "Gay Church of America" so they can have their own place to "worship" a God who is accepting of their lifestyle.

you make it sound like there's multiple gods!@

Post by **Arlos** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 7:53 pm

Well, *I* Think there are....

-Arlos