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Phlegm wrote:The Browns traded Frye to Seattle today. Quinn might be starting his first game real soon.

inc seneca wallace to reprise the Slash role ala Kordell Stewart

Holmgren has been saying for a couple years that if he could cheaply pick up a decent backup, he'd play Seneca like how the steelers used Kordell and Randle el

Tikker wrote:

Phlegm wrote:The Browns traded Frye to Seattle today. Quinn might be starting his first game real soon.

inc seneca wallace to reprise the Slash role ala Kordell Stewart

Holmgren has been saying for a couple years that if he could cheaply pick up a decent backup, he'd play Seneca like how the steelers used Kordell and Randle el

$$$$$$


This makes me giddy, like a catholic choir boy, meeting his priest for the first time.

I may have, I used to spend most Cinci games in a drunken angry stupor - seeing the ravens offense.

The real comedy gold here is how an offensive supposed Guru like Billick can have years and years of asstastic O, while a defensive mastermind like Marv can have years and years of sucky D.

Genius coaching labels are generally not worth anything.

Except for the one given Bill Walsh.... He MORE than deserved his.

-Arlos

I dunno

he just happened to have the best QB, WR in the game, as well as a top 3 RB and a great defense to back it up

numbers wise, they didn't really light the league on fire, they just won a lot of games (which obviously is the goal)

Walsh walked into a crap team and completely turned it around on both sides of the ball. Billick walked into a team with a great D. Lewis walked into a team with a very good O. Neither has turned their 'strength' areas around.

Dungy has been a defensive "mastermind" but Indy's D has been trash ever since he's been there until the past what....4 games?

And Charlie Wies's offensive "genius" has really done well with Notre Dame's offense this year. We're not even ranked in the country in rushing offense since we have a net -8 yards after 2 games.

wuwu

lyion wrote:Walsh walked into a crap team and completely turned it around on both sides of the ball. Billick walked into a team with a great D. Lewis walked into a team with a very good O. Neither has turned their 'strength' areas around.

so since chuck knoll did the same thing with the steelers in the 70's and won twice as many superbowls, does that mean he's twice the genius of Walsh?

I'd more say Noll to Walsh is an apples to apples comparison. Both were amazing evaluators of talent, which even today is the precursor to success. You can see the so called genius types today aren't the evaluator of talent, with the exception of the Pats.

Walsh to most modern coaches is an apples to oranges combination.

Noll won with better players. It's arguable that Walsh won against tougher competition more with strategy. Everyone knew what Noll was going to do. You just couldn't stop it, or score on their awesome D. People had to massively gameplan change against the 49ers, who also had a very good and underrated D that was as responsible for their titles as their O.

Rey, Dungy has modelled his D and slowly gotten his players there. After their performance in the playoffs last year and shutting down the prolific New Orleans O, I wouldn't be arguing Dungys coaching skills. Interestingly, the difference with the Colts D comes down to better players.. I.e. Bob Sanders and Booger McFarland..

it's pretty rare that better players doesn't equal success in any sport, in any era

I'd like to the see the Chuck Noll coaching tree compared to Walsh's. Here is the Super Bowl record of the Walsh coaching tree:

Bill Walsh: 3-0

First Line Tree:
Mike Holmgren: 1-1
Jim Fassel: 0-1
Sam Wyche: 0-1
George Seifert: 1-0

Second Line Tree:
Andy Reid: 0-1
Jon Gruden: 1-0
Mike Shanahan: 2-0
Jeff Fisher: 0-1
Brian Billick: 1-0
Tony Dungy: 1-0 (can also be claimed by Noll)
John Fox: 0-1

Third Line Tree:
Lovie Smith: 0-1

That is 10-7 in Super Bowls.

I can't imagine Noll's line being anywhere near 17 Super Bowl appearances.

Tikker wrote:

lyion wrote:Walsh walked into a crap team and completely turned it around on both sides of the ball. Billick walked into a team with a great D. Lewis walked into a team with a very good O. Neither has turned their 'strength' areas around.

so since chuck knoll did the same thing with the steelers in the 70's and won twice as many superbowls, does that mean he's twice the genius of Walsh?

It's Chuck Noll and his 4 Super Bowls to Walsh's 3 isn't double. Stick to your CFL, it's more your speed.

I was thinking walsh won 2, obviously

I'm sure there's room in millen's ass for your head too

Cleveland’s Paul Brown has arguably the most impressive tree, including all-time winning coach Don Shula, AFC and NFC Super Bowl winner Weeb Ewbank, four-time Super Bowl champion Chuck Noll, three-time winner and 49ers architect Bill Walsh, NFL title winner Blanton Collier, and less-successful head coaches Mike McCormack, Otto Graham, Nick Skorich and Walt Michaels.

Coaching trees are a bit silly.

A majority of NFL coaches in the past and present are linked a la 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon.

or maybe you prefer Jim Lee Howell of the New York Giants He had the most interesting tree legacy because Vince Lombardi coached his offense and Tom Landry coached his defense in the 1950s

lyion wrote:Coaching trees are a bit silly.

A majority of NFL coaches in the past and present are linked a la 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon.

yup

Tikker wrote:Cleveland’s Paul Brown has arguably the most impressive tree, including all-time winning coach Don Shula, AFC and NFC Super Bowl winner Weeb Ewbank, four-time Super Bowl champion Chuck Noll, three-time winner and 49ers architect Bill Walsh, NFL title winner Blanton Collier, and less-successful head coaches Mike McCormack, Otto Graham, Nick Skorich and Walt Michaels.

Brown was fired by Art Modell so he loses.

The thing about Walsh is that he completely revolutionized offensive football. Knoll, while no doubt a HOF-caliber coach, didn't do that. I mean, how many teams today run some variant of the Walsh offense? Before Walsh, stats show teams ran about twice as much as they passed. Post Walsh, it's now 1-1, or often even weighted towards more passes. Honestly, not since whats-his-name invented the forward pass, no one has changed the NFL on the field as much as Walsh.

Also, remember, Walsh didn't luck into those players you mentioned, he drafted them himself, including Montana. You want to argue Siefert getting handed players, sure, that you can do, since he just took Walsh's team and kept going, but Walsh built that team from the ground up, starting with a 2-14 team.

-Arlos

Arlos wrote:The thing about Walsh is that he completely revolutionized offensive football. Knoll, while no doubt a HOF-caliber coach, didn't do that. I mean, how many teams today run some variant of the Walsh offense? Before Walsh, stats show teams ran about twice as much as they passed. Post Walsh, it's now 1-1, or often even weighted towards more passes. Honestly, not since whats-his-name invented the forward pass, no one has changed the NFL on the field as much as Walsh.

Also, remember, Walsh didn't luck into those players you mentioned, he drafted them himself, including Montana. You want to argue Siefert getting handed players, sure, that you can do, since he just took Walsh's team and kept going, but Walsh built that team from the ground up, starting with a 2-14 team.

-Arlos

the rules regarding pass defense also changed in the 80's
you couldn't pass 50% of the game and expect to win pre1978

it's hard to compare coaches of different eras

ps, where the hell did I mention anything about walsh lucking into players?

the 49ers of the 80's were great because they had great talent on offense and very decent defense

the steelers of the 70's were great because they had great talent on defense, and a very decent offense (when Franco left the steelers, he was only 150ish yards from breaking the all time rushing record of the day, and their QB and both WR are in the HOF)

when was the last time someone had 2 1000 yard rushers in a season?

anyone know how many times it's actually even been done? I'm guessing 3?

Tikker wrote:when was the last time someone had 2 1000 yard rushers in a season?

anyone know how many times it's actually even been done? I'm guessing 3?

3 times is correct. Last time in 85


1972 Miami Dolphins
Larry Csonka - 1,117 yards on 213 carries
Mercury Morris - 1,000 yards on 190 carries



1976 Pittsburgh Steelers
Franco Harris - 1,128 yards on 289 carries
Rocky Bleier - 1,036 yards on 220 carries

1985 Cleveland Browns
Kevin Mack - 1,104 yards on 222 carries
Earnest Byner - 1,002 yards on 244 carries

Tikker wrote:

Arlos wrote:The thing about Walsh is that he completely revolutionized offensive football. Knoll, while no doubt a HOF-caliber coach, didn't do that. I mean, how many teams today run some variant of the Walsh offense? Before Walsh, stats show teams ran about twice as much as they passed. Post Walsh, it's now 1-1, or often even weighted towards more passes. Honestly, not since whats-his-name invented the forward pass, no one has changed the NFL on the field as much as Walsh.

Also, remember, Walsh didn't luck into those players you mentioned, he drafted them himself, including Montana. You want to argue Siefert getting handed players, sure, that you can do, since he just took Walsh's team and kept going, but Walsh built that team from the ground up, starting with a 2-14 team.

-Arlos

the rules regarding pass defense also changed in the 80's
you couldn't pass 50% of the game and expect to win pre1978

it's hard to compare coaches of different eras

ps, where the hell did I mention anything about walsh lucking into players?

the 49ers of the 80's were great because they had great talent on offense and very decent defense

the steelers of the 70's were great because they had great talent on defense, and a very decent offense (when Franco left the steelers, he was only 150ish yards from breaking the all time rushing record of the day, and their QB and both WR are in the HOF)

There were only 2 rule changes to Foot ball in the 80's, neither helped or made passing tougher.

The passing rules were changed in the mid 70's

PS, it deffinatly was tougher to pass in the 70's.

However the rules that were changed in the passing department were geared toward long pass plays. The west coast, which runs primary slants, and flat passes were hardly effected by the rules set forth in the 70's.