namelesstavern.net

Posted: **Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:24 pm**

ClakarEQ wrote:
Tikker, lets leave the old testament behind, we're talking about "today". I don't want a history lesson LOL

my point is that traditionally most folks are taught that anyone not like them are somehow bad people, or lesser people somehow, and because they're lesser, it's much more acceptable to kill those "others" as opposed to your own kin

Posted: **Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:21 pm**

I hear you and I don't disagree. If I'm coming off as me or Christians being better than them, I'm doing a bad job here LOL. It isn't a better or lesser issue to me but a right / good and wrong / bad. I don't think teaching people to hurt other people can result in a good thing. Through all the Christian "courses", Baptist, Lutheran, Catholic, Nondenominational, all them through my own history NEVER taught that, from 5 years old up through 40.

I bet if we were to review all the history of mankind and the things done in the name of a god (not Christians but all "gods"), in most cases, in fact I'd say nearly all of them, it was less an issue of religion and more an issue of power and the folks wanting power used religion as a shield.

Posted: **Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:20 pm**

Eziekial wrote:I went to a Lutheran school for 9 years, not once did we have a class that taught "hate" or "killing" of non-believers. The only "aggressive" thought in the entire curriculum was the old, "spread the message of Jesus and the word of God" bit which, while annoying, does not do any damage to the recipient.

you don't remember any of that crazy shit from the old testament?

what the fuck, the OT was chock-full of the Chosen slaying gentiles

Posted: **Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:31 pm**

Gypsiyee even if it were Catholic church teaching that all non-Catholics will got to hell (which it is not), there is a stark difference between a religious teaching that addresses what will become of people in the afterlife, and one that mandates you in the here and now are responsible for carrying out the retribution of a divine being in this world. Catholicism does not preach hatred unless you redefine hate. Hate is not taking exception or condemning what you see as immoral acts, and having been raised Catholic I know for a fact the distinction is made between hating sin and hating the people who commit sinful acts. If you need proof of this difference, you need only look at the results of that difference in teaching. All you have to do is consider how many occurrences of religiously motivated killings are committed by Catholics (or other Christians or Jews) vs Muslims in modern day.

Posted: **Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:35 pm**

Lueyen wrote:All you have to do is consider how many occurrences of religiously motivated killings are committed by Catholics (or other Christians or Jews) vs Muslims in modern day.

northern ireland

Posted: **Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:10 pm**

A discussion about Islamic textbooks comes up and you feel the need to go to war with Christianity? I guess you wouldn't be Tikker if you didn't. Hell, at least it's an entertaining thread..

Posted: **Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:48 pm**

Tikker wrote:
Lueyen wrote:All you have to do is consider how many occurrences of religiously motivated killings are committed by Catholics (or other Christians or Jews) vs Muslims in modern day.

northern ireland

The actions of the IRA are also in part politically motivated, and were condemned by John Paul II (I'm unsure if the new pope has addressed the IRA at all, as the violence has subsided in recent years).

By contrast under sharia law, apostasy is punished by execution. The cases of Muslims killing Christians and Jews all over the world because of the simple fact that they practice a different faith are too numerous to list, it's also not isolated cases of a few bad apples it is the result of religious leaders condoning it.

Posted: **Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:54 pm**

brinstar wrote:you don't remember any of that crazy shit from the old testament?

what the fuck, the OT was chock-full of the Chosen slaying gentiles

Of course we are talking ancient history there, I'm not aware of any faiths that are based strictly on the Old Testament, and it is in the New Testament that the tenants of Christianity find their basis hence the name.

Posted: **Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:18 pm**

Tikker wrote:
Lueyen wrote:All you have to do is consider how many occurrences of religiously motivated killings are committed by Catholics (or other Christians or Jews) vs Muslims in modern day.

northern ireland

lol straws are just out of reach for you, aren't they?

Posted: **Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:31 pm**

oh shit harrison said something meant to be witty, thread over

Posted: **Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:36 am**

always makes me laugh when morons condemn islam for being violent, though it's a hollow laugh

there is just as much blood on the cross as there is on the crescent

oh, and show me a religion that doesn't have political goals, i dare you

Posted: **Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:34 am**

Haven't encountered much in the way of Wiccanism that's politically motivated in nature. One of the fundamental tenets of most branches is that there is no One Right Way, so given that, there's not exactly much impetus to proselytize....

As for Christian militancy, are you claiming that current persecutions of homosexuality, including cases of what are effectively lynchings, have nothing to do with the hate for gays that most Christian sects preach?

How about anti-semitism throughout the 20th century and before?

-Arlos

Posted: **Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:44 am**

brinstar wrote:oh, and show me a *MAINSTREAM religion that doesn't have political goals, i dare you

Posted: **Thu Jul 24, 2008 3:07 am**

Oh NOW you put conditionals on it.

-Arlos

Posted: **Thu Jul 24, 2008 3:50 am**

Lueyen wrote:Gypsiyee even if it were Catholic church teaching that all non-Catholics will got to hell (which it is not), there is a stark difference between a religious teaching that addresses what will become of people in the afterlife, and one that mandates you in the here and now are responsible for carrying out the retribution of a divine being in this world. Catholicism does not preach hatred unless you redefine hate. Hate is not taking exception or condemning what you see as immoral acts, and having been raised Catholic I know for a fact the distinction is made between hating sin and hating the people who commit sinful acts. If you need proof of this difference, you need only look at the results of that difference in teaching. All you have to do is consider how many occurrences of religiously motivated killings are committed by Catholics (or other Christians or Jews) vs Muslims in modern day.

are you serious, or do you just form opinions based on your political agenda?

did I say anything about non-catholics exclusively? no, I didn't - there are catholic homosexuals, and there are certainly no hate exceptions made for them.

you don't have to re-define hate, it's the same principle. "this is wrong, you should be condemned for eternity for this." I fail to see the difference, except that you think they're all terrorists so clearly they're worse. your disgust at their teachings is not because what they do is so drastically far from what other religions do, it's that their words present it differently and your perception has been spoon-fed and candy-coated since you were a child.. so was theirs, and they're likely equally appalled by your religion. you say hating sin is different from hating people - clearly, another religion is sin to them, so again.. how is it any different?

they're not dogs. you're on one side of the fence and believe your side to be true and justified, just as they do. they have some extremists who take the word literally. we have some extremists who take the word of the bible literally too, and it results in the same thing: hate and death. it's all a matter of perception, and we are no better than the other - if you could see us through the eyes of any other country, you'd probably agree.

arlos - those types of killings don't count, obviously, because those people are immoral and wrong and sinful and deserved to die. don't be silly.

Posted: **Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:14 am**

So believing people will go to hell is the same as being told to kill them? :ugh:

There is a very clear line between the two despite your frothing hate for any religion.

Posted: **Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:21 am**

You're totally missing the point. It's not simply a belief, it is a fear and hate instilled in you from youth onward and teaches you that people different from you are wrong and condemned, and that it's okay to think that way because your beliefs are for the greater good. It is no different.

I have no frothing hate for any religion; I don't agree with them, but the good majority of my best friends are christian, half of my family is catholic. I have no discontent toward them at all, I just think too many people end up thinking themselves better for believing a certain way. If religion is what people need to give them hope, that's totally fine. Use religion to better yourself, not to look down upon others. More often than not it is the latter and not the former, painting an ugly picture of christianity that false christians are oblivious to and feel exempt from and true christians fall the victim of.

Faith gives people purpose, and I'm all for that. Just because I'm not religious myself and have a high level of discontent with holier than thou people who believe themselves above those who do not believe does not mean that I have any ill will towards those who live their lives based on the love and acceptance I believe a true christian should represent. Where my ill will lies is with those of Phelps' ilk at the extreme, and at the every day normal level, those who tell me I'm horrid for not believing in god and then turn around and live morally questionable lives in secret and think it makes you better because you brush it under the rug. It's simply the he who lives in a glass house logic.

There is such a ridiculously high level of hypocrisy in religion, and it's simply difficult to stomach for me - that's a far cry from frothing hate.

Posted: **Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:04 am**

, those who tell me I'm horrid for not believing in god and then turn around and live morally questionable lives in secret and think it makes you better because you brush it under the rug. It's simply the he who lives in a glass house logic.

Except this isn't a problem with them and their religion, this is a problem with people in general. People fucking suck.

It's like the people who blame money for their problems, when it's the people doing the "evil" FOR the money that are the root of the problem. Not a fucking inanimate object or idea. (except when the idea is that of one which tells you to go out and kill non-believers, that in itself is a problem)

Yes, believing simply because one does not think as you do that they will suffer in the afterlife is pretty shitty as well, but can you honestly compare that to being told to actively kill those you find who believe otherwise?

Posted: **Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:06 am**

brinstar wrote:always makes me laugh when morons condemn islam for being violent, though it's a hollow laugh

there is just as much blood on the cross as there is on the crescent

I've not read a condemnation of islam, perhaps I missed it. There are flaws and wrongs in all religions, some people see the flaws for what they really are, symbolic, story telling, exaggerations, etc. Some people actually believe every word down to the letter.

Islam nor Christianity in of themselves are the problem, it is the extremists that make our perception the way it is. You are twisting and spinning this into an islam is bad, christians or other religions are good. Stop the spin.

As for the original post, and me being spoiled in a country of "choice", how can you possibly agree that teaching the majority of children in a society as large as Saud. Arab. that you should kill those that don't agree, how can you perceive this as a good thing? What comparison in today's top 5 religions, outside of islam, can this be said?

You guys are being ridiculous here. Anyone that disagrees with what I'm trying to say, by default, AGREES that gay hate, racism, etc are all GOOD things that we should teach in our PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM.

I attempted to point out that what they (Saud Arab) are doing to their children is wrong, I didn't say we were perfect or we didn't have our own problems, but we sure as fuck don't push hate down through our public school system as part of the curriculum.

Posted: **Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:22 am**

ClakarEQ wrote:Islam nor Christianity in of themselves are the problem, it is the extremists that make our perception the way it is.

this is actually precisely my point

Posted: **Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:40 am**

The difference there though, Clakar, is that we are a nation of many cultures and many religions, and they are not. Their public system is equivalent to our catholic system. They don't have different varieties, it is what it is. Religion is a huge part of their culture, so it's taught in schools - it can't really be compared to our public school system.

Posted: **Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:22 am**

Religion doesn't kill people. People kill people.

Posted: **Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:00 am**

Naethyn wrote:Religion doesn't kill people. People kill people.

that's overly simplistic and very naive

Posted: **Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:53 am**

ClakarEQ wrote:10sun, don't fall into the machine, what you fear are folks with power, they just put religion up as a front, they did it in Bosnia, they do it here, they do it all over, that isn't on the same line of conversation here. You fear Christians because they are in "power" and unfortunately for all of us, they use it as part of their military arsenal.

I wasn't aware that there are any Christian fundamentalists in power; unless by being in power, you mean they lead the KKK, Aryan nation, The Nationalist Front, and various other ACTIVE hatemongering groups. Maybe those groups don't bother you because you are a white Christian, but they kill not only non-whites & non-Christians, but also Christians that do not conform with the expected norms (read: homosexuals, abortion clinics, those who support those outside the norm, etc).

These all spring from the Christian Identity movement.

Modern religious groups killing people in predominantly Christian regions of the world, but Christian terrorist groups exist all over the world. They may consider themselves missionaries trying to "spread the good word", but they will forcibly try to convert non-believers and rape/beat/kill those who will not.

Good thing Christians aren't dangerous.

oh and as far as Wiccans, they aren't members of an organized religion, but rather share a faith set no?

Posted: **Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:45 am**

10sun wrote:Modern religious groups killing people in predominantly Christian regions of the world, but Christian terrorist groups exist all over the world. They may consider themselves missionaries trying to "spread the good word", but they will forcibly try to convert non-believers and rape/beat/kill those who will not.

Um, no, you're wrong, what you're describing is exactly what I was saying, they are NOT Christians, it is not possible, they are cults hiding behind a christian shield and the killing they are doing isn't for "god" but for power, political, financial, etc.

Relgious Militants / terrorists of all sects exist in the world, it isn't a "Christian" thing.

Before you get too far down the missionary road, I know or knew anyway 3 families that were missionaries. They were all based in areas of South East Africa so that isn't a broad sampling. The rape, beatings, killings you mention is BS IMO. I'd like to see some facts on where christian missionaries do this, not some history lesson from 1900 but even in the last 20 years I'd accept, understand politics and power can't be connected with it. The horror stories I've heard from them are 100% from militant groups and/or gangs that don't attempt to facade themselves as anything but criminals.

A perfect example IMO is the death penalty, it is IMPOSSIBLE for a real, to the bone, christian to favor the death penalty. You are in fact "less" a christian and the more things of this ilk you do or favor, the further away from Christianity you get and the closer you are to a cult or something else.

My Christians in "power" statement was regarding global majorities. Christians have global majority over ALL other religions, not long ago I thought it was Hindu but I checked a few sites via google (I'm no expert though) and saw a couple charts that surprised me.

So, you could even make an analogy of sorts regarding a company like Microsoft vs Hackers compared to Apple vs Hackers. What I mean here is that the majority typically gets the most attention, by shear volume of numbers, but if you break it all down to percentages, the truth or something closer to it comes out.

Gyps, just because their culture and religion are so closely tied, makes no difference, it is still as wrong as wrong can be.

Didn't flow so well but hey

, good conversations though, I certainly see the other perspectives and appreciate the opinions, at the end of the day, no-one has disagreed with me that what Saud. Arab is doing is "right".

EDIT
10sun, I've NEVER said Christian's aren't dangerous, are you telling me they are the most dangerous? I suggest you start looking at percentages of these fanatical groups against the bigger picture, you are talking about a fraction of 1% here, laugh.

EDIT x2 (LOL)
Was just thinking more about this and lets say that terrorists of either religion (Christian or Islamic) is a percentage of 1%, just for discussion, lets assume it is a very low minority of people that would be deemed "terrorists" in either one, how does this relate to what the public school system is doing in Saud Arab?

namelesstavern.net

Textbooks in the Middle East

Re: Textbooks in the Middle East

Re: Textbooks in the Middle East

Re: Textbooks in the Middle East

Re: Textbooks in the Middle East

Re: Textbooks in the Middle East

Re: Textbooks in the Middle East

Re: Textbooks in the Middle East

Re: Textbooks in the Middle East

Re: Textbooks in the Middle East

Re: Textbooks in the Middle East

Re: Textbooks in the Middle East

Re: Textbooks in the Middle East

Re: Textbooks in the Middle East

Re: Textbooks in the Middle East

Re: Textbooks in the Middle East

Re: Textbooks in the Middle East

Re: Textbooks in the Middle East

Re: Textbooks in the Middle East

Re: Textbooks in the Middle East

Re: Textbooks in the Middle East

Re: Textbooks in the Middle East

Re: Textbooks in the Middle East

Re: Textbooks in the Middle East

Re: Textbooks in the Middle East

Re: Textbooks in the Middle East