namelesstavern.net

From a local paper's article:

A half-dozen law enforcement officials interviewed for this story agreed that the use of pepper spray at UC Davis did not appear to be appropriate or reasonable. All agreed that the incident would not likely have happened at their agencies.

"Our policy is that we do not use pepper spray or Tasers or batons against passively resisting people," said Peter Rode, Santa Clara County assistant sheriff.

Oh, and that was a police LIEUTENANT, not an ordinary officer. He has to be held to an even higher standard. And UC Davis has already suspending him for his actions.

He was completely out of line, and there was no call to do what he did. There's a reason why there has been literally world-wide outrage about what happened.

-Arlos

hmm it seems that some folks here either don't understand or are choosing to ignore the entire point of civil disobedience

Doesn't matter. As a police officer, you don't have to ask your sergeant what to do every time you have an issue. You have to be able to think on your feet and react quickly to situations. Like I said, if he had used his gun or baton, that's a different story.

Dude you dont even believe that. Let me give you a little test you can use so that you can tell if what you are seeing is fucked up or not. WHen you see the cops getting violent with some hippys replace that hippy with an image of your wife or your daughter as a young woman and ask your self if you would still be ok with it. If the answer is yes than whoever is doing what is prolly out of line if the answer is hell no than you know your full of shit.

Test number 2... Replace the image of the police with obama and see if you would still be all right with someone in a position of power doing that to a fellow citizen.

Whatever the students were doing should have ceased when the police said "MOVE." If a cop tells me that, I'm not gonna say "hell no, we won't go" or whatever... I'm gonna fucking MOVE. Plain and simple. That's a true win-win.

Suppose instead of protesters fighting with the govt about money and inequality protesters were fighting for something you believed in like tougher border control. See what your missing the point of is that people have the right to speak out and be heard and just because the police or govt tell you something doesnt make it just.

Gyps has a good point. If FAILPREZBERRY gets elected again and bans all handguns and semi auto rifles are you going to go along with it because its a "legal order" or will you hide your weapons and tell your friends to stand up for what is right. I know I am repeating myself but just because the state tells you to do something doesnt make it just or right and you can go backwards in us history or world history and find a whole lot of examples of what I am saying being true.( check outthings relating to slavery, jim crow, segregation, workers rights and thats just a few american ones off the top of my head.

Dont you get it ? Cheering on the state for being violent towards your fellow countrymen isnt funny or cute it makes you sound like a tool. Just because you dont agree with something doesnt mean people dont have the right ? Did Mlk stay inside the protest zone and shut the fuck up and go home becuase the police told him to? How bout the boston masacre ? See the brits were playing the role of the police that day and they gave the colonists a LEGAL order to disperse.....Should they have shut the fuck up and gone home because they were given an order to do so ?

I think huge amounts of right wing americans could really do with a us history lesson. Not sara palin history but the actual facts of what has happened in our country and the cause and effect of each historical incident. Start at mayflower and work your way up to now not skipping any parts you dont like and it will be a mind blowing experience for you I give you my word.

Here is a video to understand what I feel when I hear hard right wing shills talking. Brinstar when I read your posts as of late I think you may be feeling this way about politics , talking points and how things are going in our country as of lately



I have had 3 of these moments today. Once when i read about the fire dept letting a house burn down because some poor fuckers couldnt afford 75 a month. Then I had it again when I saw a fox news thing on sherdog about the muppets brainwashing our youth.The last time came when I read Our village idiots 2 quotes up there.

not that the 2 Skinnee J's are a big-time political commentary group (or a big-time anything group, for that matter) but Spazz i think you will appreciate the lyrics so i'ma post 'em



Hey big J,
Did you read the headlines today?
Some are sayin' that it's very odd
People killin' for the love of God

Stop drop roll listen
If you missed the gist son, kid here's what you're missin'
Cuz like it or not, what's gettin' lost
Is the truth like laugh lines hit with Botox
The rich get tax cuts and pardons
The poor stay poor and keep on starvin'
Isn't it alarmin' that we're armin' enemies while we just look on
The People need the light right now so here's the book on
CEO's PO's and other liars
Holy shit, Ranger Rick is startin' fires
They keep comin' and comin' and comin' and comin' like Michael Myers
And you can hear my latest jam now on FBI wires
If you're feelin' this lift your fists up
Get your gets up, ladies arch your backs and point your tits up
If you're mixed up listen up here's the score
Say it straight, fuck the metaphors!

Chorus
Who Wants This?
It's time to kill the dark turn your lights on
Who Wants This?
If you're feeling like I'm feeling sing my fight song
Who Wants This?
Or we'll see what it's like with our rights gone
Who Wants This? Who Wants This?

Now who wants the same shit from Monday to Sunday
Some may, but some way, it's gonna stop some day
Through my window sometimes I see visions
Of battalions and civilians who can't tell who are the villains
What's the difference - we all in this when shit's hittin'
We all got courtside seats to Armageddon
We all gotta walk if the engine stops
We all gonna fall when the bubble pops
CPA's, VP's, VIP's, NYPD's
Supreme court justices to peanut galleries
Presidents descended from family dynasties
To the homeless resting in cardboard on the streets
Cuz you can get robbed blind by Wall street banking
Worse than at St. Mark's and Franklin
Thanks to them stickup kids in ties and white collars
Who worship the almighty dollar, so holler

CHORUS
Who Wants This?
When the fix is in before you run the race
Who Wants This?
Is it too late for a change of pace?
Who Wants This?
The destruction, the corruption
Who Wants This? Who Wants This?

Interlude (dance around, bitches)

Hey big J
Did you read the headlines today
Some are sayin' that it's very odd
People killin' for the love of god

CHORUS
Who Wants This? (x6)

When the fix is in before you run the race

From your song I would say that is a lot more of how I am feeling. I see a lot of protesting and talking to people I know folks are mad. Im like zanchief levels of negitive though because I dont think any amount or protests or voting is going to change anything. There is so much money and power in washington that it doesnt matter what you or I want. You see it with issues from gay gay marriage, to the war in iraq. Health care to immigration issues. Re looking into our war on drugs or our foreign policy. How bout how much we spend a year on our military to how much we tax the super wealthy. It seems like huge groups of peoples voices are being ignored. Perhaps not a 51/49 margin sometime but big enough groups of people that maybe should be heard out.

Im having a lot of thoughts. Maybe unrestricted capitalism is a bad thing. Maybe representative democracy is a bad thing. I think congress might be broken beyond repair. The darkest thought though is that it doesnt matter what you or I think and it isnt going to change any time soon. That money is going to protect itself and it doesnt give a damn what we think. There is a word that starts with an R but due to the patriot act I am afraid to say that word A lot of the time I dont think anything is going to change unless we have one of those dirty words. The idea of that happening though is fucking insane because it will be a slaughter and also pointless. We know things are screwy and we are getting the raw end on every deal coming out of washington but we are we well fed and we are warm at night for the most part. People arent getting put in the gulag. I guess what I mean is america has the potential to be the greatest place for everyone who lives here but some folks just dont want to share. Heres a thought I had we are taught to share and play fair as children but when we become adults we are taught me myself and I or your some kind of liberal sociopath. I dont know if risking jail for the rest of your life at best and painful death at worst is worth it. On one hand america could be so much better and happier but is that paradise when things arent down right awful worth that kind of suffering. Kind of ranting my thoughts are all over the place tonight but thats whats up

Spazz wrote: Im having a lot of thoughts. Maybe unrestricted capitalism is a bad thing. Maybe representative democracy is a bad thing. I think congress might be broken beyond repair. The darkest thought though is that it doesnt matter what you or I think and it isnt going to change any time soon. That money is going to protect itself and it doesnt give a damn what we think. There is a word that starts with an R but due to the patriot act I am afraid to say that word A lot of the time I dont think anything is going to change unless we have one of those dirty words. The idea of that happening though is fucking insane because it will be a slaughter and also pointless.

We don't have unrestricted capitalism in any way. It's almost the opposite. In regards to your representative democracy comment, are you advocating you'd prefer a benign dictatorship instead? What government type do you favor?

Right now you have two major political thoughts: One is for ramping up government and having them control more pieces of the puzzle. The other wants far less government intervention and thinks their powers should be far more limited, especially at the federal level. It's why SCOTUS holds so much power with it's bizarre interpretations of the Interstate Commerce Act giving the federal legislative branch so much power.

Before you advocate revolution based on ideals, I'd consider exactly what you'd get in the aftermath.

Narrock wrote:You're talking apples and oranges, and trying to trip me up. A. Tuition hikes and getting pepper-sprayed by the police is NOT a violation of your constitutional rights. B. Taking away your gun rights is a democrat's wet dream, and IS a blatant violation of our constitutional rights. Again, apples and oranges... Nice try on trying to trip me up or make me out to be some kind of hypocrite.

apples and oranges? sure, in that they're both fruit.

right to peaceful protest is guaranteed to you just like gun rights are. just because you personally value one more than the other doesn't make them less equal.

well spazz, seems to me you have three options:

1. convince yourself that there's nothing you can do so why bother
2. convince yourself that you can fight for change and even win once in a while
3. fucking fight anyway, even if it never gets you anywhere

personally i'm somewhere in between 2 and 3

Lyion wrote:
Right now you have two major political thoughts: One is for ramping up government and having them control more pieces of the puzzle. The other wants far less government intervention and thinks their powers should be far more limited, especially at the federal level. It's why SCOTUS holds so much power with it's bizarre interpretations of the Interstate Commerce Act giving the federal legislative branch so much power.

It's more like: One is for trying to leverage the ONLY thing "we the people" have left in order to stave off corporate slavery. The other is hell bent on dismantling "we the people" and turning everything over to our new corporate overlords.

While I agree the GOP is too in bed with big business, the class warfare approach is a facade. The Dems are beholden primarily to lawyers, who take millions and contribute essentially nothing to society. They also want big government with more lawyers and less money in the private sector. The more government tries to do, the more corruption and bureaucracy is created and the more taxes are wasted. Eventually those who blindly trust this circle of destruction will bankrupt our country and destroy our way of life.

Tossica wrote:

Lyion wrote:
Right now you have two major political thoughts: One is for ramping up government and having them control more pieces of the puzzle. The other wants far less government intervention and thinks their powers should be far more limited, especially at the federal level. It's why SCOTUS holds so much power with it's bizarre interpretations of the Interstate Commerce Act giving the federal legislative branch so much power.

It's more like: One is for trying to leverage the ONLY thing "we the people" have left in order to stave off corporate slavery. The other is hell bent on dismantling "we the people" and turning everything over to our new corporate overlords.

Tossica,

To me it sounds like you want everyone to have their fair share, whether they worked hard for it or not.
I'm not saying this in a bad way, but to me your politcal view leans more towards a pure communist vision than even socialism. Unfortunately, pure communism doesn't work, because in the end, you end up having a country like the USSR, China, Cuba, and N. Korea.
We can also see what socialism is doing in Europe, we can see some of our social programs if left unchecked can do to our system.

Your statement does have me thinking and I know I'm going off track here...

My question is how do we fix it without being labeled a certain party or affiliation? We will never make everyone happy, but what can we do to make this society functional again? Are we at a point in time where our Declaration gives us the right to scrap this government and start new?

I don't know, I don't think so...I believe it can be fixed, but we definetly need people willing to do the work because it's the right thing to do and not because you're called a "distinguished gentleman". Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness, A government, tribe, town, whatever it has been throughout the ages exist because we want security from a group to protect us and our land from our neighbor and invaders. This day a government might mean more, to protect us, does that mean health? Does our health fall under the Life or pursuit of Happiness? It can fall under both, but I believe it falls under all 3, Our government is here to protect us from our neighbor and invaders so we can live. We have the liberty to choose, we choose to have health care. Do we choose to have health care for everyone so we can pursue our Happiness or do we choose to Choose a health care that's best for us if decide to have Health Care? I don't have an answer to that, but it's one of many questions that we need to ask in order to get this country back on track.

I believe when we ask what we need, we need to ask the right questions to see if it fits in our preamble to our Consititution. I believe when we do that, we can fix what's wrong with this country. It will not be a quick fix, it will take a long time and there will be some hardships. I believe it's time to fix this country not just for ourselves, but for our children 3 generations from now. I also believe we can be a conservative country with social programs to help our citizens so they can live life to their fullest, protect them from their neighbors if need be (police, military) and help them when the time comes when their sick.

Again, we need people that will work together for the good of the people, through bipartisanship. We need to change the term limits for both branches, we need to place term limits on the Supreme Court, it should not be a life position. All our branches for the government should be that they work for the people, it shouldn't be another status and they shouldn't get perks. They do their jobs, we applaud them for their work and they can resume life as they see fit.

The police are here to protect us from each other and protect our rights as a citizen. To Serve and Protect, the protection should have been on the peaceful protesters who are exercising their right as citizens to make it known that something is wrong. Pepper spraying those students only validated that somethings wrong. Let's put it in terms of how this would have been handled in the 1770's under King George's reign. We would have had arrests and hangings. Because we now live in a new millenium, our revolution being over 235 yrs ago, do you believe what the police did is equivalent to what could have happened prerevolutionary? I don't think so, but I believe we're a hairline away from stepping over it.

It's a scary world we live in now. Change is needed, Barrack is not the answer, I wish the Democratic Party would have the balls not have the incubent run because we need more centralists running than ever before. We need bipartisanship, we need independents.

Or, I'm just crazy and being incoherent.

Any form or level of communism or socialism doesn't work. Remember Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, etc. Lunatics of the highest order.

Except that Socialism, if combined with capitalism, DOES work. Look at Norway, Sweden, etc., all of them with a fair degree of socialism embedded in their political and economic structure, and they have a higher standard of living than we do, lower infant mortality, higher average maximum age, and a much better educational system. Oh, and they have universal health care.

None of the ones you listed actually was socialist.

Hitler, the Nazis called themselves National Socialists, but they were not socialist in the least. They were Fascist, which is at the complete opposite end of the political spectrum. Very very far RIGHT wing, not left-wing.

Stalin gave lip service to communism, but that was really a totalitarian regime.

Now, Pol Pot was much closer to actual communism, but he was insane. Forcing the entire population, at gunpoint, out of cities and into farm camps, while simultaneously slaughtering hundreds of thousands of people.


-Arlos

I'm a communist because I think corporations need to be regulated? I want the government to be able to lay the smack down on ANY corporation. If it can't, we are REALLY fucked.

I'm not sure how you got that I want everyone to have their fair share regardless of whether they've worked for it or not. If someone is unwilling to work and pay their fair share, there is literally NOTHING we can do about it beyond lining them up and shooting them. Talking heads can spout off all day long about a welfare society, people abusing human service programs, etc but unless they are willing to execute these bums, they are full of shit. I work in a non profit industry that caters to the poor and unemployed and there are those who you can help with job service training, counseling, treatment programs, etc and those who you can't. Give the losers their $600 a month or whatever and be done with it. Hopefully at least a few of their kids will make something better of themselves. No matter how worthless they are as a human being, letting their children starve is not an option for me.

.

I'm against corporate greed too, and I also support some social welfare programs. Problem with that though, is it's a well-known fact that there is massive corruption with our welfare system, let alone how many billions of dollars are going to illegal immigrants. Redistribution of wealth is WRONG no matter how you spin it. It's THEFT. That alone is reason enough for me to NEVER EVER vote for any democrat. And redistribution of wealth is s SOCIALIST philosophy and practice. It's digging us deeper and deeper in the hole, MORESO than greedy corrupt corporations are.

Tikker wrote:

Narrock wrote:Any form or level of communism or socialism doesn't work. Remember Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, etc. Lunatics of the highest order.

nice work being wrong all the time

You're an idiot not even worth responding to. It's no surprise to me that you probably didn't know that HARPER and MERKEL (maybe you've heard of them) advise obammy to strongly reconsider going to a socialist health system BECAUSE IT'S FULL OF PROBLEMS AND NOT WORKING WELL. Dipshit.

Narrock wrote:I'm against corporate greed too, and I also support some social welfare programs. Problem with that though, is it's a well-known fact that there is massive corruption with our welfare system, let alone how many billions of dollars are going to illegal immigrants. Redistribution of wealth is WRONG no matter how you spin it. It's THEFT. That alone is reason enough for me to NEVER EVER vote for any democrat. And redistribution of wealth is s SOCIALIST philosophy and practice. It's digging us deeper and deeper in the hole, MORESO than greedy corrupt corporations are.

All social programs involve redistribution of wealth, dude. All taxes redistribute wealth on some level. Are you saying Taxes are illegal? That's some Flink/Randian nonsense right there.

Zanchief wrote:

Narrock wrote:I'm against corporate greed too, and I also support some social welfare programs. Problem with that though, is it's a well-known fact that there is massive corruption with our welfare system, let alone how many billions of dollars are going to illegal immigrants. Redistribution of wealth is WRONG no matter how you spin it. It's THEFT. That alone is reason enough for me to NEVER EVER vote for any democrat. And redistribution of wealth is s SOCIALIST philosophy and practice. It's digging us deeper and deeper in the hole, MORESO than greedy corrupt corporations are.

All social programs involve redistribution of wealth, dude. All taxes redistribute wealth on some level. Are you saying Taxes are illegal? That's some Flink/Randian nonsense right there.

Way to SPIN what I said.

I didn't spin anything. You say you'd never vote for a democrat because they're thieves (re: redistribution of wealth). The difference between a (D) and an (R) is what, 1% redistribution from the top 1% earners?

That's the difference between theft and ..what?

Zanchief wrote:I didn't spin anything. You say you'd never vote for a democrat because they're thieves (re: redistribution of wealth). The difference between a (D) and an (R) is what, 1% redistribution from the top 1% earners?

That's the difference between theft and ..what?

The dems redistribute to people who don't deserve it. Succinctly stated. They steal from the rich and the middle class to accomplish this. Handicapped and disabled (and *some* other people deserve the money but dems go beyond that give our tax dollars to lazy people and fuckheads who don't deserve a penny.). What really cracks me up are assholes like Michael Moore and Sean Penn and some other celebritards who are frothing-at-the-mouth livid at capitalism, yet capitalism is what made it possible for them to accumulate millions of dollars. And people who pay money to watch Michael Moore's propaganda are even dumber than him. He's laughing all the way to the bank because of retards who support him. Dont get me started on algore, the biggest phony of all time.

Narrock wrote:advise obammy to strongly reconsider going to a socialist health system BECAUSE IT'S FULL OF PROBLEMS AND NOT WORKING WELL

dumbest shit i've ever heard. we're basically the only developed country that doesn't have universal healthcare. probably because our country is run by greedy retards like you

Taking tax money and giving it to rich people is good for the economy. Taking tax money and giving it to poor people is theft. Got it.

Tossica wrote:Taking tax money and giving it to rich people is good for the economy. Taking tax money and giving it to poor people is theft. Got it.

You talking about obama's cronies at Solyndra and his buddy Jeffrey Immelt at GE (who doesn't have to pay taxes for some reason) Or the money given to John Corzine who all of a sudden doesn't know where 1.2 billion dollars went? Got it.

Or tax the middle class and the rich, and give that money to bums and illegals... gotcha.