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brinstar wrote:ganzo there's a shitload of native americans who would like to speak with you

I did not ask for ethnic groups living inside of the nations. Native Americans are a part of the USA, not an independent nation which is part of the UN

Checkmate.

Because the jews are changing history. They weren't there first. It's not "theirs"

Ganzo's response is a nice modern way of skirting the facts

Drem wrote:Because the jews are changing history. They weren't there first. It's not "theirs"

Ganzo's response is a nice modern way of skirting the facts

Again how is this different from USA, Russia, or many of the Old World Ex-Superpowers?

Ganzo wrote:

Drem wrote:Because the jews are changing history. They weren't there first. It's not "theirs"

Ganzo's response is a nice modern way of skirting the facts

Again how is this different from USA, Russia, or many of the Old World Ex-Superpowers?

It's a checkmate Ganzo. You won. They have no credible answer, just smoke & mirrors and propaganda.

It's not the same as the USA at all. The British haven't taken over our land and then given it back to the Native Americans. I'm not going to re-write my other two posts because you two don't feel like reading them or whatever. /boggle

Drem wrote:It's not the same as the USA at all. The British haven't taken over our land and then given it back to the Native Americans.

How is it different? The British did take it from the Native Americans, then brought in European settlers to occupy it. The settlers rebelled and declared independence, established USA and further settled the land. In the Middle East the British take the land away from the Ottoman Empire then allow Jewish settlers to occupy it. The settlers rebelled and declared independence, established Israel and further settled the land. The only difference is that in Israel people support USA 100% while in the USA people shit on Israel any chance they get.

...and in both cases the people ACTUALLY LIVING HERE FIRST get fucked raw in the ass and ignored

brinstar wrote:...and in both cases the people ACTUALLY LIVING HERE FIRST get fucked raw in the ass and ignored

That was not the point of the discussion, you are changing the topic. My point was:

Ganzo wrote:I have never heard of any other nation being required to prove their right to exist to anyone, why is Israel being treated differently?

So far I have not seen anyone give me a valid reason.

Ganzo wrote:

Drem wrote:It's not the same as the USA at all. The British haven't taken over our land and then given it back to the Native Americans.

How is it different? The British did take it from the Native Americans, then brought in European settlers to occupy it. The settlers rebelled and declared independence, established USA and further settled the land. In the Middle East the British take the land away from the Ottoman Empire then allow Jewish settlers to occupy it. The settlers rebelled and declared independence, established Israel and further settled the land. The only difference is that in Israel people support USA 100% while in the USA people shit on Israel any chance they get.

They did not rebel and declare independence. They were given a land partition by the UN. The only people rebelling were the 700,000 Arabs the UN removed from their own land while the jews walked in with weapons and training that were given to them. Then they did Lausanne conference and wouldn't even let them go back to their own homes

Everything about this situation is different. I'm friends with Native Americans right now. I'm even part Blackfoot. I doubt there are lot of Israelis hanging out with Palestinians. Nor will there ever be. The entire situation is different, and no one's asking why they need to prove their statehood except you. They're already a state. What's the argument? It's just a load of crap, and the point that's trying to be made is one that Alex summed up real nicely, and it seems like you don't want to hear it

I don't think Israel has to prove their right to exist. Having the right to exist, however, does not give one carte blanche to do things like the continued illegal settlements.

I also don't think that Palestinians should have to prove a right to a state of their own, either, however. Again, though, that in no way excuses terrorist actions, bombings, shellings, etc.

Unfortunately, there are zealots on both sides that have no interest at all in compromise, and see the only solution as the obliteration and/or oppression of the other side. Even more unfortunately, those types have significant amounts of influence over the leadership of both sides at the moment. If this whole situation were left up to average citizens on both sides to solve, I think it would be settled in less than a week. I still lament the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin, as I think if he'd not been killed, there was the real chance that he'd have been able to get a real peace solution put in place.

-Arlos

Arlos wrote:I don't think Israel has to prove their right to exist. Having the right to exist, however, does not give one carte blanche to do things like the continued illegal settlements.

I also don't think that Palestinians should have to prove a right to a state of their own, either, however. Again, though, that in no way excuses terrorist actions, bombings, shellings, etc.

You want your cake and to be able to eat it, too. Do you think Israel should go back to the 1967 borders? I empathize with Arabs in that region, but the fact hundreds of thousands of Jews heading to Israel were railroaded to concentration camps by the Brits to appease the Arabs who did not want Zionism irks me far more than displaced Arabs in a Jewish state that is free and a huge ally of the U.S..

I don't have any problems with 'illegal' settlements and Israel should keep the lands the surrounding Arab nations lost the rights to due to their aggression, wars, and terrorist attacks. They have given back Gaza Strip. The Israeli government has tried to give and give, and the result is it is never enough. I'll give Netanyahu the benefit of the doubt if he does not trust Hamas.

Drem wrote:

Ganzo wrote:

Drem wrote:It's not the same as the USA at all. The British haven't taken over our land and then given it back to the Native Americans.

How is it different? The British did take it from the Native Americans, then brought in European settlers to occupy it. The settlers rebelled and declared independence, established USA and further settled the land. In the Middle East the British take the land away from the Ottoman Empire then allow Jewish settlers to occupy it. The settlers rebelled and declared independence, established Israel and further settled the land. The only difference is that in Israel people support USA 100% while in the USA people shit on Israel any chance they get.

They did not rebel and declare independence. They were given a land partition by the UN. The only people rebelling were the 700,000 Arabs the UN removed from their own land while the jews walked in with weapons and training that were given to them. Then they did Lausanne conference and wouldn't even let them go back to their own homes

Everything about this situation is different. I'm friends with Native Americans right now. I'm even part Blackfoot. I doubt there are lot of Israelis hanging out with Palestinians. Nor will there ever be. The entire situation is different, and no one's asking why they need to prove their statehood except you. They're already a state. What's the argument? It's just a load of crap, and the point that's trying to be made is one that Alex summed up real nicely, and it seems like you don't want to hear it

Drem,
It is hard for me to have any kind of discussion with you when you make baseless statements or simply choose to rewrite history to fit your argument. Any time you are talking about Israel surrendering any of its territories, you are questioning its right to its nation and homeland. That is why I brought up my question and my example. If Israel is being asked to surrender its territories, so should USA return California and Texas to Mexico and all of the original native lands to the Native Americans. Russia needs to get out of all the lands past Volga River, Spain needs to give the Basque their lands back as well... I can go on like this for two pages.

The point is Israel is being held to a different standard than other countries, but most people don't want to look deep enough to realize when they are being given a diversion from the real issues. Nothing different from how Jews were used by those in power for thousand years, just served with a different dressing.

Good, I can't have an argument with someone that supports the removal of 700,000 people by force

Again, Alex's point sums up what I'm angry about with the whole situation. I don't give two shits if it's called Israel or Palestine or Timbucktoo. I have no idea why the two idiot groups of people there can't figure out a solution. And I have absolutely no idea why the UN decided to do what it did there and partition the land. One of the biggest injustices in recent human history

You can sit here and have a runaround argument and try to change the topic all you want. You can tell me I "rewrite history", but I can cite everything I've said. Because it all actually happened. Fuck outta here bahahahah

Drem wrote:700,000 Arabs the UN removed from their own land

Could you show me where you found this story about UN removing Arabs from Israel; because from what I've read the land that was partitioned by the UN was actually legally purchased from the owners: rich land barons who lived in Turkey and Lebanon, not the poor peasants who lived on rented land in Palestine; and the 700,000 Arabs were forcibly removed from their homes during the Independence War by their own Arab brothers from Egypt, Jordan and Syria, when they tried to divide up the Israel for themselves.

This is all however not important, the only important issue is that you cannot be up in arms about the injustice and the plight of Palestinians, while not demanding that Native Americans be given back their land and allowed an independent state; because that make all your statements hypocritical.

Israel will return the land to Arabs when the rest of the world does the same.

Also don't get me wrong, I am not trying to prove anything to you. If you want to hate Israel - more power to you, everyone is entitled to their own beliefs.

It'll be conveniently self-fulfilling when Israel feels threatened enough to employ nukes against an aggressor.

An ensuing nuclear escalation should leave the world uninhabitable by current life forms for quite some time.

God is probably just craving more of a challenge for his next great act of life-creating, so global destruction via a hate-fueled, cultural and religion-based conflict is probably as good a catalyst as any.

Menelvir wrote:An ensuing nuclear escalation should leave the world uninhabitable by current life forms for quite some time.

God is probably just craving more of a challenge for his next great act of life-creating, so global destruction via a hate-fueled, cultural and religion-based conflict is probably as good a catalyst as any.

hadn't thought of this

god's all like "uggghhhh these people are assholes, i should really do another flood... OR i could just let israel have nukes >_>"

brinstar wrote:

Menelvir wrote:An ensuing nuclear escalation should leave the world uninhabitable by current life forms for quite some time.

God is probably just craving more of a challenge for his next great act of life-creating, so global destruction via a hate-fueled, cultural and religion-based conflict is probably as good a catalyst as any.

hadn't thought of this

god's all like "uggghhhh these people are assholes, i should really do another flood... OR i could just let israel have nukes >_>"

No second floods allowed per our agreement

still works

when the jews get all pissed and say HEY YOU SAID NO MORE FLOODS

god will be like "uhhh you did that lol"

Thats true, there was never any agreements made about people not killing each other aside from one of the 10 commandments, but most chose to ignore that one.

I find it hard to give a fuck about a section of the world that's been killing itself for thousands of years with hate and abandon.

Really hard...

Harrison wrote:I find it hard to give a fuck about a section of the world that's been killing itself for thousands of years with hate and abandon.

Really hard...

Still, it's safer than Detroit.

Or Chicago for that matter...

Harrison wrote:I find it hard to give a fuck about a section of the world that's been killing itself for thousands of years with hate and abandon.

Really hard...

how does that not include every part of the world?

.