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Obviously if you are inserting heavy mind effecting narcotics you are fucking up your natural chemistry. That analogy is like saying the body heals itself, so lets stick a machete in my throat and see how well it works. Sorry if it doesn't work from a common sense perspective.

Nor does your one in regards to audio illusions. I'd suggest you look at the cause of madness and schizophrenia. That is not what is being discussed, and is somewhat of a different beast. I'd also like to hear the percent of whackjobs who are that way due to illegal drugs. It wouldn't surprise me if it was high, although there are plenty who are crazy due to their parents using drugs.

Nor does your one in regards to audio illusions. I'd suggest you look at the cause of madness and schizophrenia. That is not what is being discussed, and is somewhat of a different beast. I'd also like to hear the percent of whackjobs are that way due to illegal dfrugs. It wouldn't surprise me if it was high, although there are plenty who are crazy due to their parents using drugs.

How is schizophrenia not relevant? If someone is going to make claims that the mind primarily effects brain chemistry, not the other way around, schizophrenia is a good example of the contrary.

As for schizophrenia's cause, no one knows exactly why or how it comes to be, but they do know it is partly genetic and partly environmental. Drugs can be the environmental trigger that sets it off, but there are schizophrenics who have never touched drugs.

Blaming illegal drugs as the sole cause is ridiculous, as schizophrenia has been around far longer than popular use of recreational drugs has been.

I was only trying to show that it's not an absolute and we have very limited knowledge on how our minds work on the chemicals in our bodies. I like your fire about it though, just don't push a statement out of context to prove your point is all I ask

Trauma on ones brain can come from many different avenues, Yamori. There is no doubt firing illegal brain altering narcotics is one way. Smashing one's head into concrete is another.

You missed Zieks mark completely, regardless of what point you are trying to make. Especially with the strange analogies you made.

Anyways, the simple answer is we have no deep knowledge and the answer is far too often to medicate to 'fix' where the body might be better off without the drugs.

It's vastly different than a drug one takes for personal pleasure that fucks up your brain, or something someone needs like Insulin.

Your body doesn't need neurotransmitters? A deficiency of serotonin is somehow that person's fault, where insulin is not? Do you honestly think people would take Prozac or something of that ilk for "personal pleasure"? If so, you have some VERY strange attitudes. (not that we didn't know that already)

You are neither a MD, nor a psychiatrist, nor have you ever been diagnosed with such a condition and had consults with, as Vene said, someone "With an MD in Psychiatry", which you then followed up by independent research on the condition. As such when you talk about people with clinical depression, ADD, ADHD, etc. as if you know how they work, you are completely talking out your ass. Someone with a chemical brain imbalance "needs" that imbalanced fixed in order to be healthy in EXACTLY the same way as a diabetic needs insulin. It is the exact same goddamn thing.

The attitudes that depression and such like are not REAL diseases that require REAL medical treatment are why they have such a social stigma. This results in millions of people who need help not seeking it, resulting in who knows how much personal trauma and lost productivity to the workplace (just as one example). How many suicides every year could be prevented if clinical depression were regarded on the same level as a defective thyroid or diabetes, as opposed to something shameful, meaning everyone who needs help would actually seek for it. Congratulations, attitudes such as you promulgate help kill people. Be proud!

-Arlos

Yamori wrote:
If you want an example without outside agents, suppose you start hearing voices telling you to kill yourself, and you see frightening things that are not really there. Your thinking becomes grossly disorganized. Your feelings very strongly tell you that people are plotting to kill you, no matter how hard you try to reason against it.

Bah I get this from to time, mainly when I spend too much time with my mother in law.

Arlos wrote:You are neither a MD, nor a psychiatrist, nor have you ever been diagnosed with such a condition and had consults with, as Vene said, someone "With an MD in Psychiatry", which you then followed up by independent research on the condition. As such when you talk about people with clinical depression, ADD, ADHD, etc. as if you know how they work, you are completely talking out your ass. Someone with a chemical brain imbalance "needs" that imbalanced fixed in order to be healthy in EXACTLY the same way as a diabetic needs insulin. It is the exact same goddamn thing.

What in the fuck are you talking about? And last I checked you have no CLUE about me, Arlos.

Your point is that people need to MEDICATE to fix their problems. I think in some instances this is true but far too often we do the pills first instead of last as we should. This is the view of many MDs.

The simple TRUTH that you fail to ignore is that often times psychiatrists and doctors prescribe to see what happens, and there is NOT a good methodology in regards to what they are doing.

Arlos wrote:The attitudes that depression and such like are not REAL diseases that require REAL medical treatment are why they have such a social stigma. This results in millions of people who need help not seeking it, resulting in who knows how much personal trauma and lost productivity to the workplace (just as one example). How many suicides every year could be prevented if clinical depression were regarded on the same level as a defective thyroid or diabetes, as opposed to something shameful, meaning everyone who needs help would actually seek for it. Congratulations, attitudes such as you promulgate help kill people. Be proud!

I never said depression was NOT a real problem, but given your past posts against THE MAN, I'm surprised you are so much for drugging people. Then again, given your past advocacy, I guess I'm not.

The simple fucking truth is drug companies WORK with medical schools and doctors to TELL those doctors what YOU need when you are 'depressed'. This is SLIGHTLY fucking different than a DIABETIC who will DIE if he doesn't get insulin, ya think.

Views such as yours is why we REALLY have people with chemical imbalances. Because people take illicit drugs and then feel depressed, go get some Brand X from Doctor Indiamakecash who gets his kickback from the Pharmaceutical companies and gets your brain really out of whack so you have a lifelong dependency on this bullshit.

Then again you don't seem to have ANY issue with those druggies who kill themselves. Ironic.

use the left peddle guys.

Diagnosing ADD and Diagnosing Depression are two different things. One is a known problem, the other has never been listed as a actual mental illness.Frankly I am a bit nervous about sticking what amounts to the same chemical compounds as crystal meth in my body let alone my 6year old. I myself have personally been drug free for over 10 years and I am not going to trade a fucking Coke addiction for another addiction. I struggle everyday with it. Even thinking of doing this to a kid is fucking nuts, man.

My mom didnt want to pay for meds for my ADD anymore, so she had me sit down at the dinner table, with the TV on to my right, and I had to sit, feet flat on the ground, hands flat on the table, straight back, looking straight ahead. I couldnt move my eyes to the right to see the TV, I couldnt scratch my nose or reposition myself. I had to sit there for just 5 minutes. If I moved I started over. This was her way of getting rid of my ADD. It didnt work and also gave me long term problems with things, bordering on OCD.


I should have stuck with drugs, I would be better off than I am now with my current thought processes.

Regular or Diet Kahar?

lol I wish.

powdered.

Found this today and thought it appropriate for the conversation.

<img src="http://www.namelesstavern.org/phpBB2/album_pic.php?pic_id=728">


There are some cases that meds are needed, but on the whole we are a grossly overmedicated society and I only see it getting worse.

Friend of ours stuck her kid on Ritalin because she 'couldn't fucking deal' with him. Go go parenting skills.

She should have her tits nailed to a railroad track and given a dull knife with which to saw them off before the train comes.