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Treehorn wrote:

xaoshaen wrote:

Treehorn wrote:Oh, and add some kind of snare for the love of Uther. Shouldn't be the only class completely dependent on what they cobble together with a tradeskill for some form of snare. Maybe a talent that adds a minor (30-40%) snare effect to consecration (call it Holy Ground). Cons is already mana intensive, and moving outside of the effect radius would remove the effect, it would be limited (read: balanced), but still better than nothing. Sort of like Caltrops in CoH (stationary, minor DoT and snare effect over a small radius)

As long as it's a tier five talent, with a base 10% movement reduction, increasing by five percent per additional talent point, and it prevents the paladin from using one of his other abilities (perhaps an aura or a seal?), nobody should have a problem with that.

Foregoing seals or auras sounds rather punitive, and really isn't in keeping with how things are being done currently. Look at it this way:

Consecration, Rank 4, (req. lvl 60): 565mana/cast, 0.0sec cast, effects 8 yd. radius, 8sec duration (48dmg/sec), 8sec cooldown.

"Holy Ground": 21-point talent, 1 rank, 30 or 40% base movement reduc. for duration of Consecration.

Avg. 60 pally is running 2-3k mana depending on equipment, and maybe breaking 4k if exceptionally geared. Nobody is going to be spamming Cons for a 30-50% snare, but at least it would provide them with something native to the class (providing they're specced for it) for slowing down things >20% health.

I think given the cost/mechanics of the spell the talent modifies, the recent resist adjustments for lower rank spells (rank 1, lvl 30, won't cut it against lvls 40+), and foregoing 31-pointers in the other two trees would be plenty prohibitive as is.

Under 20% health, Hammer of Wrath would still probably going to be your best bet for dropping runners (rank 3, req. lvl 60, 425mana/cast, 504-556 damage, 1.0sec cast, 6sec cooldown, 30yd range), compared to trying to snare them with Cons., and getting it doesn't require making any tough choices about talent builds.

So, you don't just want Paladins to have access to a snare, you want it to be better than the version another class gets?

Lyion wrote:I understand completely. Hopefully your lying problem will be fixed soon. Your OCD apparently cannot be, and you can't help but respond to everything.

....says the man responding to my every post. Again.

I get trolled enough so everyone can see I certainly do not respond to many posts. I can't ever remember you not posting, even when its required en masse to get the last word in.

It's odd, I don't remember you not molesting small children either. Hurray for logical fallacies! For someone who doesn't "respond to many posts", you've certaintly been busy here, haven't you?

You are very close to Mindia, as many people have noted to me recently. It's interesting that you reference him so often. If I didn't know he was a Vonk alter ego I'd almost believe you two were related.

Exactly how often have I referenced Mindia in, say, the past month? Or are you just using your highly touted imagination to make shit up again? It's funny that you'd compare me to Mindia, given how many times you've been called out for false allegations in this thread and been absolutely unable to support them.

xaoshaen wrote:

Treehorn wrote:

xaoshaen wrote:

Treehorn wrote:Oh, and add some kind of snare for the love of Uther. Shouldn't be the only class completely dependent on what they cobble together with a tradeskill for some form of snare. Maybe a talent that adds a minor (30-40%) snare effect to consecration (call it Holy Ground). Cons is already mana intensive, and moving outside of the effect radius would remove the effect, it would be limited (read: balanced), but still better than nothing. Sort of like Caltrops in CoH (stationary, minor DoT and snare effect over a small radius)

As long as it's a tier five talent, with a base 10% movement reduction, increasing by five percent per additional talent point, and it prevents the paladin from using one of his other abilities (perhaps an aura or a seal?), nobody should have a problem with that.

Foregoing seals or auras sounds rather punitive, and really isn't in keeping with how things are being done currently. Look at it this way:

Consecration, Rank 4, (req. lvl 60): 565mana/cast, 0.0sec cast, effects 8 yd. radius, 8sec duration (48dmg/sec), 8sec cooldown.

"Holy Ground": 21-point talent, 1 rank, 30 or 40% base movement reduc. for duration of Consecration.

Avg. 60 pally is running 2-3k mana depending on equipment, and maybe breaking 4k if exceptionally geared. Nobody is going to be spamming Cons for a 30-50% snare, but at least it would provide them with something native to the class (providing they're specced for it) for slowing down things >20% health.

I think given the cost/mechanics of the spell the talent modifies, the recent resist adjustments for lower rank spells (rank 1, lvl 30, won't cut it against lvls 40+), and foregoing 31-pointers in the other two trees would be plenty prohibitive as is.

Under 20% health, Hammer of Wrath would still probably going to be your best bet for dropping runners (rank 3, req. lvl 60, 425mana/cast, 504-556 damage, 1.0sec cast, 6sec cooldown, 30yd range), compared to trying to snare them with Cons., and getting it doesn't require making any tough choices about talent builds.

So, you don't just want Paladins to have access to a snare, you want it to be better than the version another class gets?

Better? Mages are a 40% snare that they can apply every 3 seconds that lasts for 5 seconds. Cast time reducable to 2.5 and duration extended to 8 seconds for a mere 10 talent points.

Wing clip is a 60% snare with an incredibly low mana cost compared to consecration, which is a 21 point talent and what Treehorn is suggesting is a talent that modifies said 21 point talent. What's the real benefit of it just being a straight 30-60% snare that only lasts as long as the target stands on the consecrated spot? Move out of the area (it's a pretty small range as it is) and you are no longer snared.

Did I mention the insane mana cost?

I don't even use consecration myself as I'm not ret specced past SoComm, but even still it's not a bad idea with some tweaking.

BTW, before you say that the area is what makes it overpowered, two words: Earthbind Totem (50%).

Oh and druids need some runner prevention too.

You do realize that if the hunter is using wingclip, chances are he's pretty close to having lost the fight already?

Are we talking strictly pvp or pve as well?

Because I'd agree with you on the idea that if a hunter is in range of me, yeah he's lost.

But in pve with a pet taunting the mob, a wing clip to stop a runner is very nice.

why would you be in melee range in PvE?

unless it's just for shitz and giggles, or if you have "fun" weapons like Eskhandar's claws


chances are, if you're in melee range, you're doing something wrong

I think you would run into melee range long enough to wing clip a mob and then run back out.

But maybe I just play my hunter wrong, like you said.

Donnel wrote:Better? Mages are a 40% snare that they can apply every 3 seconds that lasts for 5 seconds. Cast time reducable to 2.5 and duration extended to 8 seconds for a mere 10 talent points.

Wing clip is a 60% snare with an incredibly low mana cost compared to consecration, which is a 21 point talent and what Treehorn is suggesting is a talent that modifies said 21 point talent. What's the real benefit of it just being a straight 30-60% snare that only lasts as long as the target stands on the consecrated spot? Move out of the area (it's a pretty small range as it is) and you are no longer snared.

Did I mention the insane mana cost?

I don't even use consecration myself as I'm not ret specced past SoComm, but even still it's not a bad idea with some tweaking.

BTW, before you say that the area is what makes it overpowered, two words: Earthbind Totem (50%).

Oh and druids need some runner prevention too.

I was actually referring to Warlocks, not Mages or Hunters. The only snare locks get is the one I described: a tier five talent, with a base 10% movement reduction, increasing by five percent per additional talent point, and it prevents the Warlock from using any of their other curses. If you propose to give the Paladins a brand new ability that's significantly better than the existing Lock ability without taking something away to balance it, the Locks would (rightfully, I believe) be up in arms.

A quick correction on Mages: they're much more likely to use a 50% snare with a one second cast time, and a short duration: I wouldn't spend more than one point in Permafrost as a frost Mage, and I'll use the first tier Frostbolt if I need a snare (rather than damage). Trying to use a snare with a two and a half second cast on an escapee while you remain stationary is generally problematic. The diminishing returns on snares are bad for a frost mage in PvP, since most of their damage spells also have a snare effect. By the time the fight gets down to someone trying to run, Frostbolt may or may not be an effective snare any more. I certaintly don't think mages need any boost to their movement reduction, but I wanted to point out that it's not a perfect situation for them either.

Your proposed snare for a Paladin is much more powerful than earthbind totem, simply because Earthbind can be eliminated with one click of a macro. Against a competent group, totems play next to no role in PvP. I'm not suggesting Earthbind should be improved though: it's still useful for getting one pulse of snare on enemies and coupled with Frost Shock, it's more than sufficient for a shaman, I think.

I'm ok with druids' runner prevention right now. If they invest a few points in entangling roots, they get a very effective means of stopping something in its tracks.

Yeah I don't for one think that pally's need an area effect snare, or even a castable targetable snare, though I would like to see Judgment of justice have a useful pvp effect and if they decide to make it some form of snare I won't complain.

I don't think a mage would be able to use tier 1 frostbolt. Don't spells resist based on the level of the rank compared to the level of the caster?

Earthbind can be removed with one click of a macro but it only costs.. 40 mana?

The proposed pally change would cost over 500 mana a shot and could be deterred simply by moving outside of a small area of effect. That's pretty fair.

Donnel wrote:Yeah I don't for one think that pally's need an area effect snare, or even a castable targetable snare, though I would like to see Judgment of justice have a useful pvp effect and if they decide to make it some form of snare I won't complain.

I wouldn't mind seeing Paladins get more offensive options, including a snare, but I think they need to sacrifice some of their defensive abilities to get it.

I don't think a mage would be able to use tier 1 frostbolt. Don't spells resist based on the level of the rank compared to the level of the caster?

You're absolutely right. I keep trying to forget the three week old nerf, but yeah, Frost Mages are one of the classes that got seriously hosed (their best nuke is capped at 56).

Earthbind can be removed with one click of a macro but it only costs.. 40 mana?

The proposed pally change would cost over 500 mana a shot and could be deterred simply by moving outside of a small area of effect. That's pretty fair.

Earthbind has a fairly small radius too, but I'm not sure exactly how it stacks up to Consecration in that regard. The cooldown, not the manacost, is the reason that killing the totem is such an effective counter to Earthbind. Essentially, you can get one pulse every fifteen seconds. Still a useful tool, but not like being able to maintain Consecration while you have the mana.

True enough about earthbind, I had forgotten the cooldown.

I know when I'm fighting a shaman I tend to drop totems every chance I get. The more mana they spend, the better my chances of winning.

Which are extremely slim to begin with

We locks are already up in arms about a lot of things.

Shard bags sound like a great idea.

/shakes her fist

How long ago were warlocks promised shard bags? No doubt it will end up being fucking useless when they actually implement them.

Harrison wrote:Which are extremely slim to begin with

Unless you're both "competent", and not a priest.

I know this may sound stupid but why would a shard bag be considered a good thing? It would take up a backpack slot and in the worst case limit what you could carry by 16 slots. Ammo pouches and Quivers atleast give a bonus to range attack speed. If the shard bag doesn't give some sort of bonus to something, all you get is a little organization which you could have just done manually or with a simple addon (which already exists).

Bag space is already an issue, I wouldn't want to lose a spot to something like that if I was a warlock.

You guys don't understand, it is supposed to be a very large capacity container, but with the restriction of only carrying shards.

So say it ends up being 30 slots (probably too extreme), I then take up 1/2 the room I would before the shard bag (Because before it would take up almost 2 full bags)

They will probably make it the exact same size as quivers growing as you level at the same rate, becasue if they give warlocks a 30 slot shard bag, the hunters will start screaming about how their biggest is only 14 slots and it should be equal. Warlocks will come back with something like you dont need 30 slots and the oh so witty hunters will just say neither do you. It will start a huge argument and blizzard will probably want to avoid yet another argument between warlocks and hunters since there seems to be so much bad blood as it is now with pets.

You could probably make a good comparison between the number of arrows/shells to shards. It would probably come back around 1 shard per a stack of arrows/shells. For those who are not hunters, you have no idea how fast you can go through 200 arrows.

as a former warlock, all I have to say is, "Fuck Hunters."

No offense Gid, but that ratio isn't accurate. I understand how fast hunters go through arrows, but as a warlock you are often constantly summoning healthstones, and will find that you have gone through 30 in less than 5 mins on a raid.

Dont get me wrong, I would be very happy to see warlocks getting 30ish slot shard bags, I just dont see it happening. Although as for the ratio, how many shards do you tend to use in a few hours solo? I went through 3 bags worth of arrows soloing just today, 52 stacks. Thats a normal night for me btw. How many would a warlock have gone through? keep in mind my pet didn't die a single time. Yeah I do agree that in a raid situation you would fly through them to get it started, but when you look at all aspects the game from solo to grouping to raid, I would say its accurate.

Also keep in mind that when you start to run low, you can always get more. When a hunter runs out of ammo, they need to find a town and buy more. Sound easy unless you deep in an instance or even if your just a long way from the closest flightpath. When I ran low I had get out, buy more then reclear my way back to where I was before and hope that there was still no one there.

What I would personally like to see is Warlocks get a 30ish slot bag for shards and hunters get a 30ish slot bag that can hold food and arrows. Carrying around stacks of food for my pet also start taking up a fair amount of space and he goes through it like mad.

A shard bag would be nice. I'd be happy to see my shards stack in groups of 5 even.

I hate those fucking shards.

Depends on how you play, if you are demon specced you go through tons of shards. Even my spec uses a shit load while solo'ing.