namelesstavern.net

kaharthemad wrote:My sympathy begins and ends with the man who died while saving the lives of students.

/agree

Xaiveir wrote:

Gypsiyee wrote:I agree to a point that the kid needs help, but I dont think any help can be administered until he's gotten punished - aiding and loving the kid is not the way to go initially; that'll simply give the message how sorry we were for his suffering and minimize the suffering that he caused. His head is a mess, yes - but it doesn't matter how demented you are, there isn't a person in the world over the age of 5 who doesn't know what murder is and how it effects people.

Punishment for his crime first, salvaging any sense of humanity he has later.

I agree absolutely Gyps. Coddling him will not help him at all. It is very sad that he was kinghootered (butt secksed!) when he was younger. But that does not give him the ability to kill someone, without penalty.

DAMN, thats fucked up but made me LoL, anyways....fuck off

Wow....you people are amazing. Since when is getting someone help coddling them? And we've gone from justice to punishment? Unbelievable.

I have no qualms with helping him while he is in confinement but generally help is given to prevent things like this from happening. Once they've already happened, justice = removing the threat from society.

Where is the justice to the family of the MURDER victim in your desire to 'help the poor child'?

How is crucifying this kid going to alleviate any of the pain, Gyps?

Ask how it is going to be preventing any further pain.

Gypsiyee wrote:Where is the justice to the family of the MURDER victim in your desire to 'help the poor child'?

Justice is one thing....more abuse is not.

Justice = abuse
Abuse = daily assraping by the big nigs in lockup for the rest of his life because he took the life an innocent man

Martrae wrote:

Gypsiyee wrote:Where is the justice to the family of the MURDER victim in your desire to 'help the poor child'?

Justice is one thing....more abuse is not.

ok then let the people against the death penalty pay for these fucks jail time. ask me, kill'em and be done

lyion wrote:The parents also failed.

Gee... this is news?

Given the parents don't get punished, ostracized, or otherwise held accountable, I'd say it is news to our society.

It's the evil video games, or being picked on...

lyion wrote:Given the parents don't get punished, ostracized, or otherwise held accountable, I'd say it is news to our society.

It's the evil video games, or being picked on...

They simply lose the product of the past decade and change of their lives.

Granted, it doesn't sound like they invested a whole lot emotionally into the kid.

lyion wrote:Given the parents don't get punished, ostracized, or otherwise held accountable, I'd say it is news to our society.

It's the evil video games, or being picked on...

That was the point of my sarcasm. The majority of parents *today* (not all parents - there are some damn good parents out there) aren't fit to raise a gold fish. Yet, they're allowed to breed uncontrollably.

Diekan wrote:

lyion wrote:Given the parents don't get punished, ostracized, or otherwise held accountable, I'd say it is news to our society.

It's the evil video games, or being picked on...

That was the point of my sarcasm. The majority of parents *today* (not all parents - there are some damn good parents out there) aren't fit to raise a gold fish. Yet, they're allowed to breed uncontrollably.

At what age do you deem it reasonable to hold the kid accountable? Parents can't control EVERYTHING ya know.

Zanchief wrote:How is crucifying this kid going to alleviate any of the pain, Gyps?

His pain? It won't. I don't view it as 'crucifying' the kid by punishing him and holding him accountable for his actions. This wasn't self defense, it wasn't an attack against his attacker, it was an attack against an innocent man who was trying to save other people.

This 'kid' knew good and well what he was doing - I'm not about to take part in some pity party for him for having a rough life. Heaven forbid he rise above it and come out that much stronger like so many people do and use their pain for a worthy cause - this 'kid' (a 16 year old is *not* a kid in my eyes at all.) chose to take his pain and use it as an excuse to cause more pain.

Mar - if you feel that punishment for his crime of cold blooded murder isn't acceptable justice for the family (read: the victims) what do you think is? Do you honestly think that the victims are given justice by HELPING the child that murdered someone they held dear and ignoring any aspect of punishment? Juvenile hall is not punishment, especially not for murder. Juvenile hall would be paradise for him if his family was *that* bad.

He is not a child - he is 2 years from being a legal adult. Again, he is old enough to drive, he is old enough to work, and he is old enough to suffer the consequences of his actions. He murdered an innocent man. Next are we going to sympathize and hug the columbine shooters? Same age bracket, same excuse. Are they 'poor kids' too?

My point is doing anything to this kid shouldn't impact the victims at all. It won't give them any measure of justice or satisfy their revenge.

Personally I don't know what a fair punishment is. Maybe he deserves to get raped in the ass (again) in prison for the rest of his life, maybe he deserves to be put into an institution and let Nurse Cratchet look after him. I just don't think people should be reacting on the assumption that punishment should apply to the needs of anyone else but the kid. If it's not going to help him, I just don't see the point of it.

He was 15 when it happened and there are differing accounts of what actually happened. He also has "a maturity level that's 2 levels below 8th grade".

Fact is, if this kid had intended to kill people he'd have shot a lot more than just the one person he did. He had plenty of opportunity to do so.

I'm not saying he needs to be punished, I am saying that he needs to be separated from society.

Until he is 18 years old, he will not go to prison. He will stay in the juvenile prison. If so many feel as strongly as you folks do about his being unfit for general prison population, then I am certain that a battery of psychological tests will be conducted on him to determine his status in that regard.

Sadly, it won't matter, since we are a prosecution and punishment geared society.

This kid is chronologically 15, but mentally he is 9 or 10. His punishment was fitting an adult.

Yes, he should know right from wrong, but in this case the 'justice' is more vengeance and ignores the crux of the problem, and does not address how to fix future problems of this nature.

It's not a matter of revenge, really - the fact is it *does* affect the victims. Imagine if someone murdered your gf - there was no question about it, you knew who did it and you knew the circumstances under which she got killed - you'd be completely ok if that person just kept on walking around like normal and the only difference in their life was that they had to see a therapist? There's no peace of mind knowing that this person can't hurt someone else the way they've done to your girlfriend, you, and the entire family - now they're just given a bit of therapy and then they're free to do as they please, walking with normal people every day. That's why it matters to families - there's no justice in a little slap on the wrist and a hug and apology for any abuse they endured - it minimizes the action and makes the family feel that what happened was of little significance and what is significant is the pain the boy is feeling.

His case is important to more than just him - when he shot the gun, he lost any right to his importance and his need for rehabilitation. Does he need mental help? Yes, but he needs to be punished first and shown a world of not having any rights whatsoever because he doesn't deserve any rights - he doesn't deserve justification of his actions or any empathy regarding the pain he's gone through - any sorrow for his pain went out the window when he did what he did. It's simply no longer about him - now it's about everyone that the actions encompass. For his sake I do hope his family gets charged for their actions as well, but that shouldn't minimize his.

As Adam said, he needs to be cut off from society. I simply don't buy the 'mentally he's young' excuse - a 9 or 10 year old would know that murder is wrong even still. It's simply not an excuse. Granted, he didn't go in there to shoot up the school *necessarily* but he *did* intend to shoot someone. 15 is not much different from 16 and holds no bearing on my opinion.

Justice is NOT about punishment. They are 2 separate things and it's a shame you (and other people) cannot distinguish between the two.

Martrae wrote:Justice is NOT about punishment. They are 2 separate things and it's a shame you (and other people) cannot distinguish between the two.

Exactly. It's not about revenge and punishment. Also, I don't think the victims are objective enough to be the proper judge of the situation. I don't think anyone here is proposing we just let the kid walk free, but he needs HELP not more torture to satisfy our bloodlust.

I have to disagree there, Martrae. Justice is about punishment.

We send people to jail to 'pay' for their crimes, i.e., to be punished.

However, as a modern society we should not be executing mentally retarded people (or anyone, for that matter), and we should cautiously approach putting a child in jail for life for dodgy circumstances. That is not punishment, but vengeance, in my opinion, as it does not fit justice.

What is justice to you then, Mar? What is justice for the victims of his crime?

Zan - I have no bloodlust for this kid. I don't want him to go to jail to suffer rape etc, that's not what prison is about, and I think perhaps there's been a bit too much tv viewing and stereotyping due to this - prison is not a nice place, but to assume that the entire basis of prison is internal rape is simply wrong.

I don't think the circumstances of this crime are dodgy - there are parts of his life that are horrible, yes - the day in question's circumstances, however, are not dodgy at all.

One could argue (and would, as seen in many murder trials on the defense side) that many murderers are emotionally unstable, mentally retarded, etc - it's a defense that is beaten into the ground and more often than not the easy way out to invoke pity into people, which has clearly succeeded with some.