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Tikker wrote:

Naethyn wrote:Religion doesn't kill people. People kill people.

that's overly simplistic and very naive

If not religion, something else.

http://www.southparkstudios.com/episodes/103800

okay now we're using south park to bolster our arguments about religious violence

no

Gypsiyee wrote:are you serious, or do you just form opinions based on your political agenda?

Instead of trying to answer what appears to me to be a facetious question, I'm just going to ask you to explain that further, and how you believe my opinion here is based on a political philosophy.

Gypsiyee wrote:did I say anything about non-catholics exclusively? no, I didn't - there are catholic homosexuals, and there are certainly no hate exceptions made for them.

Gypsiyee wrote:they teach hate for those who aren't of the same beliefs as you.

Gypsiyee wrote:they simply tell you that for the rest of eternity, if you don't agree and believe like they do, you are a heathen and may you burn in hell.

If you do not believe the teachings of the Catholic church, then you are not Catholic, so yes you were specifically talking about non-catholics. Now you seem to want to change your argument to either encompass Catholics who aren't perfect (ie all of them) or people who profess to be Catholic that don't believe in some of the teachings of the church. I'll discuss each individually as it would apply to your cited example of a homosexual Catholic. First let me state this: Catholic church teaching in general is that there is nothing wrong in having temptation to sin, in fact it is common, so simply being someone who's disposition is an attraction to people of the same sex is not a sin. In short just being a homosexual in no way means that you will "burn in hell". Now there are two cases I can see in this regards, either the individual follows Catholicism and does their best not to commit acts of sin (of which homosexual relations are one), or they simply reject Church teaching in which case they profess to be a Catholic, but in truth don't follow the Catholic faith. In the first case we are talking about a practicing Catholic who follows the teachings of the church to the best of their ability, and is not viewed any differently from any other Catholic trying to avoid acts of sin. In the latter case you have someone who rejects catholic teaching, and may call themselves a catholic, but doesn't really practice the faith. I would submit to you that simply giving lip service to any religious ideology, but not practicing it does not really make you a follower of that faith.

Gypsiyee wrote:you don't have to re-define hate, it's the same principle. "this is wrong, you should be condemned for eternity for this." I fail to see the difference

The difference is that one teaching addresses how a divine being will pass judgment, and what the results will be, the other puts the passing of judgment into the hands of fallible mankind. One is essentially a cause/effect relationship, the other is a mandate of thought and attitude. If I told someone that snorting 20 pounds of cocaine would kill them that does not mean I hate them if I do so, nor does it mean I would wish death upon them for doing so, I'm simply stating reality and why it's a bad idea. Let me take that a step further though. According to the Catholic church I myself am in more peril of going to hell when I die then a Muslim who has never been exposed to Catholicism. By contrast were I to have grown up in a country under Shaira law and become an apostate, the law would mandate my execution. To be a true believer my relatives would have to support or even carry out my execution. Last I checked none of my family members were contemplating the necessity to execute me for my rejection of Catholicism. Given your pro ported views Gypsiyee when is the last time you asked your relatives if they hate you.. I mean that would probably be worth knowing don't you think? That is how ridiculous your comparison is, you might be able to give it some semblance of reason on paper, but if you apply it to the real world it becomes laughable.

Still failing to see the difference hu? are you serious, or do you just form opinions based on your political agenda? (still not quite sure what you meant by that but figured I'd throw it back at you for fun)

Gypsiyee wrote:, except that you think they're all terrorists so clearly they're worse.

No sorry, please stop trying to tell me what I think. I do believe there is a radical element within general Islam that hides behind the truth of the faith. It attempts to sway others to it's cause and interpretation of the religion, and one of it's chief methods of doing so is to facilitate the mind set that you just accused me of having. You are in short here attempting to make a character assassination by asserting that I group radical fundamentalists with average Muslims.. I'm sure the radical fundamentalists would support your efforts, shame on you.

Gypsiyee wrote:your disgust at their teachings is not because what they do is so drastically far from what other religions do, it's that their words present it differently and your perception has been spoon-fed and candy-coated since you were a child.. so was theirs, and they're likely equally appalled by your religion. you say hating sin is different from hating people - clearly, another religion is sin to them, so again.. how is it any different?

I was not taught, nor do I believe it is a sin to follow a religious faith other then Catholicism, even when I was a Catholic I did not hold such a view. Again nor was I ever taught, nor have I ever hated someone for sinful acts simply because they were an affront to the divine. Yep I've had feelings of hatred toward people because of their actions, but I'm human, and those actions in relation to how they relate to the divine have absolutely nothing to do with that and everything to do with how those actions impacted myself or others.

Gypsiyee wrote:they're not dogs. you're on one side of the fence

Like a puppy dog? 8)

Gypsiyee wrote:and believe your side to be true and justified, just as they do. they have some extremists who take the word literally. we have some extremists who take the word of the bible literally too, and it results in the same thing: hate and death. it's all a matter of perception, and we are no better than the other

See above, I don't hate people with differing religious ideologies, and I will equally take issue with radical extremists who preach hate, regardless of their particular masked brand, but also I don't try to equate imaginary masked hate with unabashed hate.

Gypsiyee wrote: - if you could see us through the eyes of any other country, you'd probably agree.

First please explain to me how it is that you see us through the eyes of other countries. Yes I am aware that your boyfriend (finance?) is an immigrant, but I'm quite sure that there are others in his country of origin that hold different views of us then he does. Frankly I don't isolate my discussions with people to only those from this country... wonders of our great melting pot and the internet, and I can tell you this, views are as varied as the individual so please don't fool yourself into believing that because you understand the views of your boyfriend that you understand the views of the entire world.

Wow, Lue had some free time it seems

I imagine it takes him at least one hour to write those things up. I can't believe someone that writes so much still fucks up "its" vs. "it's"

I did not time myself, but I'm a fast typist. Now if I had proof read it might have taken a half hour~.

that's your shortest post

No it's not. I have a few one word posts.

True.

brinstar wrote:okay now we're using south park to bolster our arguments about religious violence

no

See what you did there? Exactly what I was trying to argue against! It is not religious violence. It is just violence. The people who put the two together are just as blind as the people who use it for justification.

do you honestly believe that religion is NEVER the cause of the violence?

Though I appreciate the thought-out response, Lue, you'll forgive me if I don't respond to most of it as it is mostly based on your opinions or personal experience and while we disagree on some points, I don't think they're all necessarily applicable to debate as they are mostly based on your own personal experiences so there's not much I can say to argue them, but thank you for sharing your experiences growing up catholic. Obviously ymmv with all religion, my opinions weren't stated toward personal experience with family members or anything like that so much as the ideas that are taught and encompassed by religion. You're absolutely correct that there is a difference between written teachings and portrayal in real life, and since the topic at hand is *textbooks* I'll go ahead and skip over that part, since my whole opinion in this particular thread is based on the by the book teachings, not human interpretation of them

Now, skipping to the end where it is something that I can formulate a proper response to - how I'm able to see through another country's eyes. The only reason I'm responding to your thread at all was to answer you here, because I think it's incredibly unfair of you to think me so much a sheep that I feel a certain way simply because my s/o is from another country and has a specific opinion. I've voiced lots of opinions over the years, and I'd hope that regardless of your disagreements with me you would give me a little more credit than 'just because your s/o feels that way you do.'

To answer your question, though, it is not based on an opinion I've gotten from Jonathan - we've all gamed over the years, and through gaming you meet people all over the world and have different conversations. Living here in the US, we meet people from all over the world, too. 90% of the people I've spoken with over the 8 years I've gamed have gotten progressively worse opinions of the USA. There are few and far between that I find actually respect us half so much as we respect ourselves, and as someone being objective, it has become apparent to me over the years that we are less than favored throughout the world to the average citizen of another country. We think much more highly of ourselves than the rest of the world does, and I'm not simply talking what we've done politically. I'd be interested to hear how you think the world perceives us. You can even see on this board that the few people who are not citizens of the US aren't particularly fond of our country, and even if you haven't had the benefit of being exposed to many people from other parts of the world, you do at least have the ability to take random opinions from those citizens for what they're worth, do you not? You don't have to have someone else's eyes to see what they feel, you simply have to open your own.
'

Lueyen wrote:The difference is that one teaching addresses how a divine being will pass judgment, and what the results will be, the other puts the passing of judgment into the hands of fallible mankind.

good to know you oppose the death penalty

Lueyen wrote:The difference is that one teaching addresses how a divine being will pass judgment, and what the results will be, the other puts the passing of judgment into the hands of fallible mankind.

The number of Christian who actually follow the rules as interpreted by Lueyen? Zero.

All Christians pass judgement on others, including you. I guess that means heaven is a pretty lonely place.

I’d also like to point out that since you think any Catholic who does anything which you deem immoral, whether it’s present in the bible or not, is not a catholic, why is it that the same logic can’t be applied to Muslims? You don’t actually think the vast majority of Muslim mosques teach violence against other religions? They represent a minority just as those who teach hate are the minority in your religion. You just choose to dwell on them because it makes your sports team seem that much better. And also because you’re a bigot. Not very Christian of you, I know, but hey, nobodies perfect. Go to confession and all your sins will be absolved in the eyes of God…

You're just as much a bigot as anyone and for very similar reasons though opposing as they may be.

I'd actually say you, Tikker, and the like, are moreso than most.

if you think that, i'm not sure you actually know what bigot means

Nope, you fit the definition quite nicely.

Harrison wrote:Nope, you fit the definition quite nicely.

Why don't you actually finish a thought for once, and let us know why you think I'm a bigot?

Tikker wrote:do you honestly believe that religion is NEVER the cause of the violence?

I didn't say that. People use religion for violence justification all the time. My point is if religion didn't exist people would justify that same violence with something else. Religion is not the source.

Naethyn wrote:

Tikker wrote:do you honestly believe that religion is NEVER the cause of the violence?

I didn't say that. People use religion for violence justification all the time. My point is if religion didn't exist people would justify that same violence with something else. Religion is not the source.

that's a bit of a tangent, but I know what you're getting at

people will congregate with like minded people, and kill people different than themselves

that being said, a lot of religions also mirror this thinking and promote it to a certain extent

Harrison wrote:Nope, you fit the definition quite nicely.

sure..

I'd say you're the more likely candidate

There is a bit of a difference between Christians and Catholics.

Evermore wrote:There is a bit of a difference between Christians and Catholics.

err, catholics are christians


yes obviously there's differences between the different sects of christianity

Tikker wrote:

Evermore wrote:There is a bit of a difference between Christians and Catholics.

err, catholics are christians


yes obviously there's differences between the different sects of christianity

Ya I wouldnt say that. Catholics are supposed to be christians but there are alot that you could never tell.

For all intents and purposes, Catholicism is the original branch of Christianity. (Well, OK, the Greek Orthodox might quibble at that, but not too heavily). The protestant faiths are all sects that split off from the original Catholic root.

I was raised Catholic, up through confirmation, mainly because I wasn't given any choice in the matter. Once I was away from home and on my own, I ended up chucking the whole thing, and finding a spiritual path that worked for me, rather than one composed largely of dogma.

-Arlos