namelesstavern.net

For some people, saying the pledge every day provides a deep sence of honor and love for their country. If they do not belive in "God" why should they have to alter it?

No one would be hurt by not saying it, some people are hurt by saying it. What good reason is there to not remove it? Being as it wasn't even in the original pledge, added in a time where we were doing every thing in our power to prove we were beter then the no god communists, there really is no good reason to leave it in, it should never have been added in the first place.

Oh and for those who say, just dont say the plegde, in some states it is required by law to actually speak the words.

I don't feel it harms anyone leaving it in there except for people who simply want to have something to bitch about.

I haven't been to church in about 8 years.. I still believe in God sure, but I'm no bible banger. Whether I am or not is of no importance, under God is what this nation was founded with, and shouldn't be modified. You'd never see anyone go into Japan and say that they want doctrines to have Buddha's name removed.

While America is to allow people equality, there should always be underlying rules for what this country stands for. Everyone doesn't have to agree, but this country was born Christian and shouldn't have to convert simply because those with different beliefs choose to live here.

If you don't believe in God, fine, I'm sure it's no skin off of anyone's back for you to skip those words. You cannot accomodate everyone - if you leave it in, those who don't believe in God are 'hurt.' If you take it out, those who do believe in God and that that's what our nation is are going to be 'hurt'. Our nation damn sure also isn't 'indivisible' but no one asks for that to be taken out, do they?

I wouldn't go into a company and order them to change their policies if that's what they've always stood for... the same applies here, imo.

Gid - I just saw where you said in some states it's required by law to say it.. those laws are what need to change, not the pledge.

Actually, this country was NOT born Christian. Go read Jefferson's letters at the time of the Consitution. He said his PROUDEST achievement within the Bill of Rights was the "Creation of a wall between Church and State". The rest of the Founding Fathers new his intent, they all agreed to it. This country was specifically founded to be a secular nation, but one that contained Christian people in it, but also gave equal protection and opportunity to those of any faith whatsoever.

It goes completely against many people in this country's beliefs to proclaim allegience to, or even admit to the existance of the Judeo-Christian diety. Basically, anyone of ANY faith that doesn't believe in that god, and Lyion's suggestion to mean tit to be a different god is disingenuous at best. It's blatantly obvious what "God" is meant, even apart from the direct evidence from Eisenhower himself what was meant. The original pledge did not have those 2 words in there, and if what's important in all this is pledging allegience to one's country, there's *NO* reason why they need to remain.

I don't feel that Newdow is doin this as a political statement, he's put in so much time and so much of his own money to fight this, I honestly believe he's doin git because it's something he believes in, and he's trying to right what he (and I, for that matter) see as a wrong.

-Arlos

Arlos wrote:Actually, this country was NOT born Christian.

http://www.claytoncramer.com/UnderGod.html

If it wasn't added into the pledge until the 50s, then it isn't what the country's ALWAYS stood for... in fact, we pride ourselves for religious diversity. While I agree wholeheartedly that this will always be a pointless yet hot topic for debate whether a change is made or not, think about it. Let's say you're a member of a polytheistic religion, and you came to the US to avoid execution for your beliefs and for refusing to conform to the current government's beliefs in your home country (it DOES happen), and one day your son comes home from school. You ask how his day went, and he asks in return, "Who's God?" Can you honestly say this wouldn't tug at your strings at least a little bit?

It wouldn't tug at my strings, no.. just like it wouldn't tug at my strings if someone said who's Buddha or who's Allah.. this is America, it's diverse and people are going to be exposed to a plethora of different religions and beliefs - that's acceptable. If you come TO a country where that's the primary belief and people will freely worship as they please, it should be expected. If I went overseas and my kid came home and asked, I wouldn't stomp up there and say don't you push your beliefs on my kid - it's their country with their laws.. I'm not there to be the world police.

The primary religious belief in this country is that of a Christian belief.. also acceptable, except, apparently, to those who aren't Christians. That's fine too, no one has to agree, but this nation IS primarily Christian, no matter how proud someone was to separate government and religion. IIRC, Jefferson was a Christian (don't quote me on this, I could be wrong, but I'm about 85% sure).

I'm just concerned about where the line will be drawn in this 'free' country. How can you make everyone happy all the time? You just can't.. someone will always bitch. It's a sad time when the country keeps altering itself to please everyone.. there has to be SOME ground rules, or in the end there will be utter chaos.. the US is already becoming a cesspool of ignorance and mememememememe, why make it worse? If you give people an inch, they always take a mile. It has to stop somewhere, doesn't it?

By coincidence, yes, this country is primarily Christian. If we were located elsewhere on the planet, it's quite likely we wouldn't be, and people would bitch just the same about a simultaneous pledge to one's "religiously free" country and another's god. There are private Christian schools, and for all I care they can have their students pledge themselves to their god all they want, as their student base is ENTIRELY (not mostly) dedicated to the same god.

I just don't think you should have to pledge yourself to ANY deity in this of all countries in order to display patriotism... especially since realistically, the only people that say it are children who don't know what they're saying, but are spectacularly impressionable.

Umm wasn't this country founded under the principle that no religion is better than the other? It shouldn't matter if 1% of the population uses it or not, it's equal.

It was?

hahahaha

This country was founded under the idea that any religion would be embraced, something which England wouldn't allow. Most of our founding fathers weren't even christian, some (especially Jefferson) spoke out against christianity.

Gentlemen, we are not, nor have we ever been a Christian Nation ...
The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish
or Mohammedan nation.
-John Adams

Some, even many of the Founding Fathers were certainly Christian, and even deeply religious. However, read over the Constitution, the ONLY place religion is mentioned is in the Bill of Rights, where it specifically states that there shall be NO national religion. Jefferson publicly stated that his intent by this was to "Build a Wall between Church and State", and the others voting on the Bill KNEW that such was his intent, and agreed to it by passing the Bill.

So, what we had is a group of people of faith who, for the good of the country, realized that they needed to keep their religious faith SEPERATE from the secular governance of the nation. If only all of our politicians today held themselves to the same standard.

In any case, I don't think you can argue that the era in which the original Pledge was written was a MORE religious time than now, yet they did not put in any statement of profession of faith to a diety. It wasn't necessary for them then, it sure as hell isn't necessary for us now.

-Arlos

Tacks wrote:Why do you even bother Martrae? You're so easy to figure out yet you try to act like you're something you're not.

Coming from Taxx, this is pure hilarity.

Continue with the mindless banter about shit no one cares about!

Agreed, and as history has proven the ONLY thing religion does is causes seperation between people. Our founding fathers wanted this country to be patriotic put their country FIRST and then their personal beliefs to themselves. They wanted us to be a close nation by coming together for a common good, not individual personal beliefs.

Harrison wrote:

Tacks wrote:Why do you even bother Martrae? You're so easy to figure out yet you try to act like you're something you're not.

Coming from Taxx, this is pure hilarity.

Continue with the mindless banter about shit no one cares about!

Um hey fagmaster, obviously even you, as fucking stupid as you are, can understand what I was saying. How does me acting like a complete jackass relate whatsoever into political beliefs?

Hey asshole, we actually had a decent debate going on here... why wake up in the middle of the afternoon and blow it out of the water?

This has been done 1000000 times on this very board, it is hardly doing anything other than allowing some of you loudmouthed cocksheaths to spout off your [insert political party here] hate some more.

What party do you follow? I hate them.

I don't follow anything.

I more often than not just hate everything with equal fervor.

Kaeerwen wrote:What party do you follow? I hate them.

The Nihilist Party.

Zanchief wrote:

Kaeerwen wrote:What party do you follow? I hate them.

The Nihilist Party.

You've tried that before and failed miserably.

Hey wait a minute... that could apply to Leah's thread too!

Kaeerwen wrote:

Is that a jalepeno leather jacket?