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arlos wrote:I'm saying the US directly organized it.

Is that kind of like how we're responsible for the Twin Towers collapsing and orchestrated 9/11?

We won all the battles, but lost the war in Vietnam. Why? Because the politicians willed it so, and we pulled out and left the South Vietnamese high and dry.

I agree Lyion but I also have to say that had the war been fought the way it shgould have been from the start we would have lost alot less people then we did, and we would have been the clear concise victor.

We let politicians run that war. Had we left it to Generals that were more concerned about victory and less concerned about how their hair looked when Walter Kronkite came to interview them the war would have been alot smoother.

Things that caused this war to devolve imho:

1. The funding for this war was improperly placed. See the original M16...very shitty weapon that basically had no prior warfare testing.

2. Too many chiefs and not enough fucking indians in the Planning and stratedgy.

3. Improper use of troops in combat situations.

4. Improper communications from different Generals/Commanders of the military.


This is something I have studied a bit. I have spent quite a bit of time looking over stradegy and plans from this war and frankly it was poorly planned out from the start. We used Green generals who had never seen combat, we listened to polliticians who were more insterested in how much money they could collect from Lockheed/Boeing/Matel/McDonal Douglas in stock dividends.

If we wanted to win that war we could have. The first thing we should have done was shot the polliticians that decided to get their fingers in the military pie. Start a war, then let the military do what they do best. Dont try and pussyfoot around the objectives. Dont second guess the military till the war was over. And for christs sake dont televise the fucking thing.

I blame hippies.

so do I

Lets forget that they were right.

We live in a diffrent time zancheif. Hippies protesters and anyone against a war is now a horrible person.

Well actually hippies are lazy, stinky and disgusting...thats why most people hate them...All the other shit is just icing on their ass-smelling cake.

Zanchief wrote:Lets forget that they were right.

"lol" #2 of the day, thanks.

arlos wrote:I'm saying the US directly organized it.

-Arlos

The coup and the assasination or just the coup? The reason I ask is that I have yet to figure out if our government and/or the CIA wanted him simply removed from power without intention of assasination or if that was also part of the plan/goal. Although most of the information I've come across portray's the US role as something akin to turning our backs, there is some fairly substantial evidence to the contrary, most noteably some very large sums of money paid to South Vietnamese generals. If this was a case of an internal power struggle and overthrow that we chose not to intervene in, then pay outs would not be neccecary. I can see the US interest in the overthrow, what I have yet to discern is motivation to take things beyond that to assasination.

spazz wrote:We live in a diffrent time zancheif. Hippies protesters and anyone against a war is now a horrible person.

I have no problem with someone viewing the option of a military solution as a poor or wrong choice, even if I disagree with them that doesn't make them a horrible person in my book. If however their arguments against military action lean toward support for our enemys or those of our allies, or if those arguments argue for appeasment and concession that would significanly weaken us or our allies and cow tow to the opposing side.. yea I take a very dim view of that.

Blaming the "hippies" for the loss of the Vietnam war is pretty short sighted. From my discussions with people who lived through the era, my understanding is that if you grouped all the people together who were opposed to the US involvment in Vietnam, you find a very small minority which were etreme and millitant about it, and who went beyond just having an issue with us being there to blaming our troops and trying to undermine our efforts.

Anyone know what George Bush and the republicans did with Jimmy Hoffa?


and where is that godamn tinfoil hat of mine?

Hey just because I'm paranoid does not mean they aren't out to get me.

Dude war oposition to vietnam was not a small group. Or maybe it depends on where your from.

spazz wrote:Dude war oposition to vietnam was not a small group. Or maybe it depends on where your from.

To an extent it did, some areas of the country had less in the way of protestors. However I think you missed what I was getting at, I wasn't saying the number of people opposed to the war was small, but that the number of people who took it to an extreme level and blamed our troops or cheered the enemy was small by comparison.

My parents were not hippies, though they were in college & grad school through the middle and end of the 60s, and were definitely anti-war. My dad's said repeatedly, that the biggest regret he has about the anti-war movement back then is how they treated the soldiers themselves, when they treated them like crap for going, when it wasn't at all their fault for having to go. No regrets about protesting the war, but major regrets about how the soldiers were treated.

Anyway, I think that that's something that at least most of the current anti-war movement is doing much better. They're blaming the politicans that sent them, but treating the soldiers themselves with nothing but respect. (loonies like the people who protest at cemetaries aside).

-Arlos

Israel invaded Lebanon earlier today. From Associated Press:

(AP) Israeli troops punched into south Lebanon on Wednesday as warplanes flattened buildings including one thought to hold Hezbollah's top leaders, intensifying an offensive despite mounting international pressure and a Lebanese appeal to spare the country further death and devastation.

Hezbollah denied that any of its "leaders or members" died in the strike in the Bourj al-Barajneh district of south Beirut. The explosives did not blast a leadership bunker, but a mosque under construction, the group said in a statement faxed to The Associated Press.

The strike was the most dramatic action on a day that saw Israelis clash with the guerrillas and launch strikes that killed an estimated 40 people. Israel broadcast warnings into south Lebanon telling civilians to leave the region, a possible prelude to a larger Israeli ground operation.

Hezbollah's strikes killed 2 Arab boys today. How proud they must be...

arlos wrote: they were in college & grad school through the middle and end of the 60s, and were definitely anti-war.

-Arlos

Hippies


just cause they were not wearing tie-die does not mean they were not smoking the reefer... And dont try and tell me that the stuff they grew in thier basement was for BioDiesel research

Captain Insano wrote:
and where is that godamn tinfoil hat of mine?

kaharthemad wrote:

arlos wrote: they were in college & grad school through the middle and end of the 60s, and were definitely anti-war.

-Arlos

Hippies


just cause they were not wearing tie-die does not mean they were not smoking the reefer... And dont try and tell me that the stuff they grew in thier basement was for BioDiesel research

No, it was coke....no wait!

arlos wrote:My parents were not hippies, though they were in college & grad school through the middle and end of the 60s, and were definitely anti-war. My dad's said repeatedly, that the biggest regret he has about the anti-war movement back then is how they treated the soldiers themselves, when they treated them like crap for going, when it wasn't at all their fault for having to go. No regrets about protesting the war, but major regrets about how the soldiers were treated.

We asked Arlos' Mom about her current beliefs, but she declined comment.

Ooooh, mom insults now. Lyion, you win at teh internets!

Lets see. Both parents are devout catholics, both serve as eucharistic ministers at their church. My dad is a max-rank Knight of Columbus, and they're on the senior board of the Catholic Ministries sponsored organization called Marriage Encounter, which puts on retreat weekends for couples looking to strengthen their marriage. My mom now works doing editing, and my dad's a marketing research consultant, though they're about half-retired at this point. They both went to catholic schools for primary education, and met at Santa Clara university, which is run by the Jesuits. Oh yeah, they're WILD AND CAAAARAZY people. Yes, they happen to be liberal politically as well.


-Arlos

0oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh

fuck the war

Was meant to be a funny, Arlos, not an insult man. I just thought that pic was cool. Sorry if it came across as nasty.

Most of the Catholics in my family make you look like a conservative. We have the wide spectrum of philosophies in the church, as you know.

I have a lot of buddies whos dads were in Vietnam, and they've told stories of how they were spat on and called babykillers when they came back, makes me sick just to think about it